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Thread: mutts and bitzas vs pedigree dogs, responsible breeding

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange fruit View Post
    Kalacreek,

    To me, ANKC pedigrees are more like a certificate of authenticity than anything truely usefull for all the information that can be recovered through their use.Ask a breeder of a traditional working breed, bred for show what the grandparents traits for work were like, or the temperament in stressful new situations.Were they good with stock. How long were they fit to work. How athletic.

    An open registry thats united under a common, highly appreciated purpose is not the same thing. If a breeder appreciates what a well bred dog is capable of, he will try to maximize that.
    I think it really depends on the breeder. Certainly there are ANKC breeders who are really in touch with their lines in terms of temperament, athletiscm etc. Sure the commercisal working side of things fall away in most cases but I cant say I get too worried about that as it is not where I source my working dogs. I doubt the typical suburban home worries too much about the working side of things either. Really it is about health and temperament and a range of dogs for apartments to active families.

    There are probably plenty of breeders of pretty average working dogs as well, unfortunately plenty of working bred dogs find themselves in unsuitable suburban homes or prematurely dispatched. I guess as a breeder of dogs one has to also appreciate where they are going to be placed. A showbred BC is often highly suitable for an active suburban home and is well loved. My showbred BC resides with family in the city and a nicer, healthier pet you wouldnt find.

    Of course changing a working dog into a suburban pet, showdog goes against the grain but then again the majority of the population is simply not up for a working bred dogs and the showlines can make great pets. A show breeder worth their salt will know what is going on with their lines. My beef is when fashion in the showring starts to result in unhealthy conformation and wierd extremes, this is not right.

  2. #62

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    not a geneticist but I do not put a lot of stock in a ped more than a few generations back, I mostly could not care less other than trying to trace recessive genes and that is impossible on old generations anyway.


    as far as working ability all I need to see is the parents, the grandparents, siblings and other living progeny, the rest is over exaggerated in importance imo.

    add to that the latest dogs should, in theory, be better dogs than the ancestors or what's the point.

    so many people want to reproduce the past, it just speaks of a failed breeding program in my book, it is like an engineer wanting to get a better car by reproducing something from the 70's. apart from nostalgia value there is no car better from the past than a comparable car now, if there was the engineers should be sacked.


    I totally see it the same with dogs.

    most peds are useless anyway because health testing is only very recent so old peds can not tell you a thing of importance.

    I do not give a crap about your ped until i have seen your dog work.

    show me the dog and if I like it I will take a brief look at it's ped out of curiosity.

    when DNA testing improves and genetic markers for health get up to speed pedigrees will be redundant.

    in angus world they have breed improvement numbers that are on-line and many I know never know what the bull looks like or care, they just look up the numbers they want buy the semen and use embryo transplants in the cows, pedigrees are largely irrelevant. showing stud cattle now given breed numbers is basically nothing more than getting your name around and a bit of socialising, back in the day it was everything in stud cattle world.

    in the german shepherd world most pedigrees are false anyway due to known corruption, errors, loss of records (eg war) .......etc

    a friend of mine went to euro to buy a gsd to import, the breeder asked him what ped he would like to go with the dog, friend said puzzled, "the dog's ped"?, quiet common to get any pedigree you want for a dog, same with hip X-rays, more than one kennel I could name has dozens of dogs and the same hip X-ray for all of them.

    if I remember tony Parson's book correctly he mentions infusions of dingo into kelpie lines that never appear in their pedigrees.


    my "purebred" german shepherd is down from an old dog that was used widely all over the world - in a badly kept secret this dog was half malli (Belgian shepherd).

    and the malli's in that country (Holland) in another badly kept secret have pit bull infusion which in some breedings comes out in appearance very obviously still today many generations later.

    in the same litter I can tell you the brindle pups get routinely sold as one registered breed and the fawn puppies get sold as an entirely different breed FROM THE SAME LITTER.

    the working dog people that buy these dogs for high end service work do not give a rats arse, they just want a dog that works. vendors get their crates back from dogs they sold to military, police etc with the pedigrees still stuck to the crates, the buyers do not even look at them. they just take the dog out of the crate and hope it tries to bite everyone it sees.
    Last edited by muttboy; 04-25-2015 at 09:01 PM.

  3. #63
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    add to that the latest dogs should, in theory, be better dogs than the ancestors or what's the point.
    Trouble is - nobody has a working crystal ball to predict with complete certainty that any given pairing will produce something better.

    And there have been times where some really good line of something (eg non-itchy fine wool merinos) that got lost for various reasons (war, drought are common ones).

    My cousins farm angus - sperm count and kill weight isn't everything. If you don't look at the structure and conformation as well as the butchered carcass performance. You risk breeding free range beef cattle that can't calve unassisted or can't walk properly (like meat chickens) or die the first time food gets a bit scarce. Tho the need for a good doer doesn't matter as much in a feed lot - they still would like cattle that are more efficient with their feed.

    So various rellies - like their cattle to be strong structurally as well as all the other good stuff.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by muttboy View Post
    not a geneticist but I do not put a lot of stock in a ped more than a few generations back, I mostly could not care less other than trying to trace recessive genes and that is impossible on old generations anyway.


    as far as working ability all I need to see is the parents, the grandparents, siblings and other living progeny, the rest is over exaggerated in importance imo.

    add to that the latest dogs should, in theory, be better dogs than the ancestors or what's the point.

    so many people want to reproduce the past, it just speaks of a failed breeding program in my book, it is like an engineer wanting to get a better car by reproducing something from the 70's. apart from nostalgia value there is no car better from the past than a comparable car now, if there was the engineers should be sacked.


    I totally see it the same with dogs.

    most peds are useless anyway because health testing is only very recent so old peds can not tell you a thing of importance.

    I do not give a crap about your ped until i have seen your dog work.

    show me the dog and if I like it I will take a brief look at it's ped out of curiosity.

    when DNA testing improves and genetic markers for health get up to speed pedigrees will be redundant.

    in angus world they have breed improvement numbers that are on-line and many I know never know what the bull looks like or care, they just look up the numbers they want buy the semen and use embryo transplants in the cows, pedigrees are largely irrelevant. showing stud cattle now given breed numbers is basically nothing more than getting your name around and a bit of socialising, back in the day it was everything in stud cattle world.

    in the german shepherd world most pedigrees are false anyway due to known corruption, errors, loss of records (eg war) .......etc

    a friend of mine went to euro to buy a gsd to import, the breeder asked him what ped he would like to go with the dog, friend said puzzled, "the dog's ped"?, quiet common to get any pedigree you want for a dog, same with hip X-rays, more than one kennel I could name has dozens of dogs and the same hip X-ray for all of them.

    if I remember tony Parson's book correctly he mentions infusions of dingo into kelpie lines that never appear in their pedigrees.


    my "purebred" german shepherd is down from an old dog that was used widely all over the world - in a badly kept secret this dog was half malli (Belgian shepherd).

    and the malli's in that country (Holland) in another badly kept secret have pit bull infusion which in some breedings comes out in appearance very obviously still today many generations later.

    in the same litter I can tell you the brindle pups get routinely sold as one registered breed and the fawn puppies get sold as an entirely different breed FROM THE SAME LITTER.

    the working dog people that buy these dogs for high end service work do not give a rats arse, they just want a dog that works. vendors get their crates back from dogs they sold to military, police etc with the pedigrees still stuck to the crates, the buyers do not even look at them. they just take the dog out of the crate and hope it tries to bite everyone it sees.

    Pedigree in a working sheep dog does not mean purebred, what it will do is give you some idea as to want went in to the dogs that you have today as there are many different types of traits. For experienced stockmen and for breeding programs they can give a lot of information. Present dogs can be different to past dogs because there is say now more emphasis on breeding for sheep trialing, or with the use of motorbikes to muster, people may be more interested in yard type dogs, resulting in dogs losing the ability to muster.

    The modern dogs could well be inferior to the dogs of old because they are not required to do the more difficult tasks required of them in a different era. Some people are interested in keeping the old blood alive as they believe the working dogs of past eras were superior and well they might have been because of the conditions in which they worked. Simple as that, nothing to do with cars

    From my perspective I wouldn't look at yard lines as that is not what I need. I look for dogs from certain lines that are more likely to have what I need then I will look at the parents etc. and particularly other offspring.

    That is your prerogative not to look at a pedigree but when selecting a working pup I like all the information I can get. Sometimes it is simply not possible to look a all parents and grandparents especially if from imported semen. Knowledge of lines can give you information to narrow down your search so you don't have to look at every pup in the country.

    The police may not give a rats about the pedigree but they would purchase from proven lines so I guess that they expect that the breeder does give a rats.

    I am no expert on this but I am inclined to listen to the experienced old stockmen that I know and you bet they know lines of dogs and dogs from way back in detail. It is pretty interesting to listen to their experiences and what they see in different dogs and what they know about their background and ancestors and how things have changed.
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 04-25-2015 at 11:10 PM.

  5. #65

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    better / worse...dogs have only survived because they adapt to human needs.

    it is like old people saying kids could all read better and were smarter back in the day, simply not true, young people haave a more complex and harsher world to live in comparing from obsolete standards is silly.

    the old guys say lots of stuff, before youtube etc you can say what you want, hell I am getting older I can tell you I was much better in my youth now than what I really was, the fish are always bigger, the guys tougher,smarter, better looking....you name it.

    old stockmen had their challenges, young stockmen have theirs.

    I reject most grand stories of the old days, because like my old stories they are based on fact but made out to be much better now.

    if a dog can do it's job now, today well then it is a good dog, most of what the old people say is BS, I am qualified to say that I am getting old.

  6. #66
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    We are all getting old and perhaps history repeats itself because we don't learn lessons from the past. I actually don't agree that everything all old stockmen say is bullshit, certainly hasn't been my experience. I personally have learnt a lot from some of them that has stood me in good stead with running my farm and working dogs.

  7. #67

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    Ha, reminds me when I was a teenager in the gulf/peninsula, the old guys never shut up about how we were gonna miss the wild cattle, how soft we were, how useless our dogs were yadayada. We mustered with a chopper and less then 1/4 the men they used and did in 6 weeks what took them a year and we got so many old bullocks they missed and generations of cleanskins they missed had much pleasure in pointing this out in detail until they finally SFU and learned it is a different game than theirs was.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by muttboy View Post
    Ha, reminds me when I was a teenager in the gulf/peninsula, the old guys never shut up about how we were gonna miss the wild cattle, how soft we were, how useless our dogs were yadayada. We mustered with a chopper and less then 1/4 the men they used and did in 6 weeks what took them a year and we got so many old bullocks they missed and generations of cleanskins they missed had much pleasure in pointing this out in detail until they finally SFU and learned it is a different game than theirs was.
    Yeah I can understand that, however when my neighbour had a stack of sheep on the road and his bike broke his dogs were hopeless as they are yardy types. He rang me as he was at the bottom of my property with a large flock of sheep on a road train route, and I bought my good mustering dog to help him out. I work my property with dogs, no motorbikes so good mustering types are important. Hence I find the old stockmen advice as useful and so did my neighbour that day.

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by muttboy View Post
    not a geneticist but I do not put a lot of stock in a ped more than a few generations back, I mostly could not care less other than trying to trace recessive genes and that is impossible on old generations anyway.


    as far as working ability all I need to see is the parents, the grandparents, siblings and other living progeny, the rest is over exaggerated in importance imo.

    add to that the latest dogs should, in theory, be better dogs than the ancestors or what's the point.

    so many people want to reproduce the past, it just speaks of a failed breeding program in my book, it is like an engineer wanting to get a better car by reproducing something from the 70's. apart from nostalgia value there is no car better from the past than a comparable car now, if there was the engineers should be sacked.




    .
    I agree the best way to to judge a dog is by what you can see, in front of you. The more , the better. A pedigree IS ONLY as good as the dog in front of you.

    I see the same thing with horses....People selling a horse and asking big money because of the famous lines in its make up- only the horse in question has NONE of the attributes that made the parents so popular in the ring.

    For the same reason tho', I don't see that just looking at the numbers can ever replace recognizing what what you have in front of you.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange fruit View Post
    I agree the best way to to judge a dog is by what you can see, in front of you. The more , the better. A pedigree IS ONLY as good as the dog in front of you.

    I see the same thing with horses....People selling a horse and asking big money because of the famous lines in its make up- only the horse in question has NONE of the attributes that made the parents so popular in the ring.

    For the same reason tho', I don't see that just looking at the numbers can ever replace recognizing what what you have in front of you.
    You need both, particularly if you have a breeding program. A pedigree or at least a good knowledge of the working attributes and health of certain lines that you are breeding to me is very useful information. You then pick the best dogs that have the attributes you are looking for to continue the lines. Then you have a good chance of getting what you are looking for. Traits can skip generations or dogs but you can bet the best attributes will be in some of the dogs and if you continue selecting you can get some very high quality predictable lines.

    Dont tell me that if you decide to breed for certain attributes that you have talked about in the past you wouldnt keep close track of the attributes and performance of every dog that will make up your lines?
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 05-01-2015 at 09:10 AM.

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