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Thread: mutts and bitzas vs pedigree dogs, responsible breeding

  1. #41

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    Yes, We have the science to breed better than ever before, with welfare expectations well catered for and able to evolve with the times. As they should.

    I think pedigree dogs have potential too. But it will NOT be acheived while the present rules exsist. The K.Cs have ruled out environmental selection. They can promote purpose in the pure breeds as much as they wish, it won't bring purpose out side of the K.Cs back unless that purpose is driven by environmental demands, and not restricted to pedigree dogs only. Purpose for dogs is driven by the environment. The K.Cs are only a part of that environment. The aren't "It" They might promote purpose for K.C dogs. It will only be relevent to the K.Cs

    The WKC works, because its independent of the K.Cs and a top dog is still judged by how well he performs for his purpose at home on the farm- a great working dog might perform very well at trial. Or he migfht not. You can be sure for every good working dog that does well at trial, there are 10 better at home that will never make it to trial, but they will still be recognised as a good dog and likely have the chance to spread their genes.
    Trials don't work to show how well a dog fullfills its purpose, unless its purpose is to trial.

    The K.Cs came on the scene after these breeds were developed in the communities they lived, worked and were valued in.
    They divided a species in 2. and effectively promote that the way to breed worthy dogs is to breed only from those eligible to have a pedigree bestowed on them after birth. Nothing else in reality separates a pedigree from a mutt- Just a document bestowed after after birth.
    Selection for improvement is based only on how well they conform to their specific breed type. Predictability. You CAN'T "improve" on predictability. You can only tighten the parameters to make it MORE Predictable. That means less able to respond. Physical and mental limmitation. Less able to deal with physical stressors, disease etc. Less able to evolve according to new environmental demands.

    Some people manage to hold on to purpose despite the K.Cs.
    I have yet to see a trial designed to select a good service or guide dog. Thats done on the job. Environmental selection, again.
    Last edited by Strange fruit; 04-16-2015 at 02:15 PM.

  2. #42

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    I have always wanted to know why extreme type dogs seem to be favoured at shows.

    I may be missing the logic here but the word standard implies the most standard dog, ie one in the middle of the range allowed.

    big breeds get favoured for dogs right on the upper limit or just over the standard and small dogs are chosen for undersize etc.

    long haired breeds become wookies, short haired breeds become bald, short muzzles become deformed.......etc

    at least that is how I see it, show german shepherds are becoming mastiff like with huge heads like bears and massive unwieldy bodies, the older german shepherds look like kelpies, light upright frames slightly elongated bodies, very lithe and athletic.

    the standard sets the breed not the judges and the latest trends.

    the judge on the day seems to override everything based on personal preference.

    standards actually go further than just type, but judging never does in shows as long as the dogs are friendly.

    why is the standards for everything else except shape and colour completely ignored?

    I think the idea of a standard can be very useful and be used to improve breeds, how come judges can completely ignore most of what is written in them?
    Last edited by muttboy; 04-16-2015 at 01:56 PM.

  3. #43

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    look at these dogs compared to a kelpie, look more similar than a modern german shepherd does;

    sorry, posting images is apparently beyond my skill level.

    please take a look at this old foundation dog;

    SGR 1925 CH (US) Klodo vom Boxberg

    looks kelpie like to me, I could post more examples if I knew how to.

    and then get a bucket beside you in case you throw up and look at these tip of the extreme conformation dogs the chinese are going nuts for and paying BIG $$$$ for at the moment, granted aus and euro dogs are not this bad YET but are locked in the same trend;

    it is a page from google images cos I can't post pics, you will get the idea.

    look at the first few lines, see how quick you can change a breed ie a few generations and create another breed, apparently they are pure ie no infusion of other breeds, truly amazing in a sick way.

    http://www.google.com.au/search?q=ch...g&ved=0CB8QsAQ
    Last edited by muttboy; 04-16-2015 at 02:11 PM.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalacreek View Post
    To be honest I dont think the top working breeders would have any interest in the show ring at all. The people I get my working dogs from run a commercial farm a very long way from the city. They select their dog specifically for working. The show ring is of no relevence at all to them. Their reputation is based solely on the working quality of their dogs. Their dogs are very lean and tough often any white tinged with red dust, ears often grizzled and I am sure would cause most show judges to faint in shock LOL. Some operatiions have paid $10,000 for dogs from proven working lines, because it can often save them the cost of a workman.

    I know one experienced stockman has said that people are now breeding dogs specifically for herding trials and he believes it is ruining the breed as too much focus is put on the requirements of the trial ring. He believes true working dogs are bred specifically for the commercial job. Not that a good dog shouldnt be able to trial but the priority is the traits needed for commercial work.

    I am not sure how you would set a physical standard for a working BC they are so varied in looks. Same with kelpies and many have huntaway and collie infusions in them specifically to strengthen certain working traits. Round here Huntaway infusion is common with farmers for various reasons. Many showbred kelpies are red, and white not allowed. Some top red kelpies I know have a flash of white are they culled because they have a few white hairs?

    Certainly if I was running a big livestock operation my interest would not be in a breeder who tried to breed for both work and showing. That is my personal opinion anyway.

    I think of a tough old shearer and stockman friend of mine who breeds working kelpies. He popped by one day to show off a promising pup he was training for a local farmer and saw the ribbons I have from dog sports. I explained about it all and he just laughed and laughed. He was totally incredulous that people would do such things with their working dogs. I didnt even bother to talk about people showing dogs, he would have thought they were all mad lol. His idea of a good working dog is one that has proven itself in the yards day after day pushing hundreds of sheep through the yards.
    My dogs did both..I did well at herding trials and we lived on a 3000 head Sheep and 500 head cattle farm......I still feel we can do both and in my eyes we should. i certainly was interested in both our pure breed dogs and horses to perform well at home and at shows. And i still meet some who still do the same. I just think that the Judging is now too much orientated to the showies only
    Pets are forever

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by newfsie View Post
    My dogs did both..I did well at herding trials and we lived on a 3000 head Sheep and 500 head cattle farm......I still feel we can do both and in my eyes we should. i certainly was interested in both our pure breed dogs and horses to perform well at home and at shows. And i still meet some who still do the same. I just think that the Judging is now too much orientated to the showies only
    I dont disagree that it is possible, I guess I am just not sure I see the point. Farmers I know that breed working dogs have absolutely no time or inclination to show dogs. Some trial their dogs in yard and utility trials but mostly they are simply too busy running their farms and selecting dogs with the best working traits. As I said working dogs I know are so variable in looks I cant see how breeding to a set physical standard is relevant to a commercial farmer. How on earth would you judge these dogs in the show ring? Some are butt ugly but are exceptional working dogs. Anyway I dont know a commercial working dog that is on and ANKC main register. Even the ANKC herding trials I sometimes attend with one of my dogs is mainly attended by working bred dogs on the sporting register. When I choose a working dog I need one with a short coat and a massive cast that will work out of sight in rocky, hilly terrain and put scattered sheep together. I have a big Border collie who will do just that. I dont trial him because he is not a trialing dog. I use another dog for that and although she is nice in the small trial ring and has A and B course titles my collie is the dog I use mainly on the farm in difficult situations or big mustering jobs. My trialing dog is not one I would breed from for commercial situations even though she is a successful trialing dog.

    My Border collie looks nothing like a show dog and would be an epic fail in the show ring. He is balck and white and a fab structure but that is where it ends. He is Mr lanky with the worst ears ever. But the best working dog. Working Border collies I have seen range from black and tan, black and white to speckled and freckled, ears up and down and often weirdly anywhere in between, from 43 cm to nearly 60 cm, coats of any length but not heavy like showbreds.

    http://www.campaspeworkingdogs.com/Other%20Dogs.html love the bitch Moorlands Georgie but I cant imagine her in the show ring. My big casting BC has Moorlands lines in his breeding.
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 04-16-2015 at 05:15 PM.

  6. #46
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    Here is an interesting take on the Border collie and kelpie as a breed from a breeder of renowned working dogs Tully Williams.

    Scroll down to "Border collies or not"

    Campaspe Working Dogs

    I thought it was a very interesting perspective and one that makes perfect sense to me anyway.
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 04-17-2015 at 12:44 PM.

  7. #47
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    the judge on the day seems to override everything based on personal preference.
    Yup, and that is what has ruined the KC prize winning dogs.

    Maybe they should have something more like the ice skating eg 9 judges, and the highest and lowest score discarded and then the rest averaged. Trouble is - 9 judges - or even 3 is beyond the means of most kennel clubs in Australia where it's still very much amateur run clubs but the judges get paid a token amount for their time. It's still insanely competitive. We like to win. The money can be irrelevant. And the breed suffers.

    At the moment there is a whole lot of transition from the "we've always done it that way" to the "science studies show this way is better, healthier, and the dog enjoys it more"... People who have invested time and money in the old way - don't want to change, even if they're routinely beaten by people using the new methods. Agility competition is a shining example of this. The old school people are getting flogged by people using the new methods. But they won't let go or learn.

    PS here's an article about outcrossing to improve a breed and how obstinate some people are about it.
    http://retrieverman.net/2011/01/15/t...-basset-hound/

    It really doesn't take very many generations to make a major difference (CF the rather unethical silver fox experiment).

    PPS this is what breeding for purpose can look like...
    http://kombinalong.com/home/?page_id=23
    Last edited by Hyacinth; 04-17-2015 at 09:50 PM.

  8. #48

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    "But outside of working dogs, I fail to see any good reason for breeding non-ANKC registered dogs."

    come on, you are not that naïve, some reasons;

    no health testing required

    no micro-chipping

    no vax

    no temp testing

    no documented ped

    .......

    all = more profit + less effort + no accountability


    sheesh.

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by muttboy View Post
    I have always wanted to know why extreme type dogs seem to be favoured at shows.

    I may be missing the logic here but the word standard implies the most standard dog, ie one in the middle of the range allowed.

    big breeds get favoured for dogs right on the upper limit or just over the standard and small dogs are chosen for undersize etc.

    long haired breeds become wookies, short haired breeds become bald, short muzzles become deformed.......etc

    at least that is how I see it, show german shepherds are becoming mastiff like with huge heads like bears and massive unwieldy bodies, the older german shepherds look like kelpies, light upright frames slightly elongated bodies, very lithe and athletic.

    the standard sets the breed not the judges and the latest trends.

    the judge on the day seems to override everything based on personal preference.

    standards actually go further than just type, but judging never does in shows as long as the dogs are friendly.

    why is the standards for everything else except shape and colour completely ignored?

    I think the idea of a standard can be very useful and be used to improve breeds, how come judges can completely ignore most of what is written in them?
    The way I see it, There were types when the K.Cs took over. There was much more variety in types because the breeds were not kept pure, but chosen on ability and different people had different preferences for their own reasons. A standard type had never been a priority, it was some thing trhat developed to reflect the environment and the purpose.

    The standards were debated and formalised by the members of their newly formed breed clubs, the "type" was standardized to reflect an agreed "picture" that best represented the goals.
    It would have been acheived very quickly, as some of those links show. So the only way to keep "improving " on that is to become more extreme.

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by newfsie View Post
    My dogs did both..I did well at herding trials and we lived on a 3000 head Sheep and 500 head cattle farm......I still feel we can do both and in my eyes we should. i certainly was interested in both our pure breed dogs and horses to perform well at home and at shows. And i still meet some who still do the same. I just think that the Judging is now too much orientated to the showies only
    I wish more people did! Personaly, I chose to stick to a working version and forget the pedigree after giving pedigrees a fair go. I figured no matter what I do, any breed that has declined so much in so short a time that the pedigree version was not fit for its purpose temperamentaly or health wise, my drop in the ocean wasn't going to bring them back. Purpose needs to be a focus 1st before any improvement there will be recognised.

    The testing required to breed healthy dogs under the current system can only increase while available lines decrease. We create a situation where breeding a pedigree dog can only become more and more a specialised field, complicated by the need to understand what to avoid before you can begin to think of what you want to bring to a mating. And fewer able to understand the complexities of a breed.

    Muttboy,

    RE; The links to old type G.S.D, Yeah, that basic build on the sheperd is what I like to see on any dog I choose, be it a terrier or giant. It can be heavier or hairier but seems the type favoured by natural selection.

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