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Thread: mutts and bitzas vs pedigree dogs, responsible breeding

  1. #21

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    ^ good idea, it seems the WKC is a good step in that direction, way better than the ANKC but I do see a lot of ANKC breeders bad mouthing the WKC yet they can not come close to even matching what the WKC does and is trying to do.

    the WKC actually pours a lot of money into health research, training education, and the science of inheriting working traits.

    the ANKC does???? oh collects money for registrations and show entries and tells you your dog is a purebred.......and.....

    one problem with your plan is that most in fact I would say the vast majority of dogs are bought as house pets (nothing wrong with that either), and a good pet is whatever the owner thinks it is. how would you make that a valid purpose that promotes the breed ie a retriever breed, a german SHEPHERD, a CATTLE dog.......etc?

  2. #22

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    Maybe allow multiple registry grouping for any single dog. It could suited to retreiving 1st, but if the breeder thinks his/her dogs would ALSo suit a companion, then that could be a 2nd listing. Maybe number listing in order of 1st- 2nd purpose? Over a certain number of listings that also include companion could be Utility.

    Companion itself could have subsections for things such as high maintenance grooming or apartment living, outdoor/indoor suitability. Make people buying or breeding realy THINK about what they want and what they can provide.

    Buyers could have the option of updating their pups rego. groupings at 2 yo. to reflect the realities of wha they actualy get out of the breeders mating choices.
    Last edited by Strange fruit; 04-13-2015 at 10:28 AM.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange fruit View Post
    My solution would be to establish an alternative registry, open to any dog , but purpose based.

    A purpose based registry by its nature would need any one registering a dog to think of what purpose it fits.
    is it a realistic assement, and is there demand for that. No matter how ridiculous a purpose they give. Others in the same grouping would judge for themselves.


    It would make people chosing a dog look at what they want it for.

    I think purpose could bring back responsibility to breeding.
    This already happens for working sheep dogs. Both my working dogs are on the Working Sheepdog Association register. A dog can get on to this register by birth (both parents are registered) or by undergoing a rigourous testing process by accredited stockmen/women who know what they are looking for in a working dog.

    My kelpie is also on the WKC (Working Kelpie Council) register. There are different grades of registration depending on the documented information about a particular dogs lines. The top registration I understand carries with it a WKC guarantee of workability and the breeders with this level of registration have to undergo quite a few assessments.

  4. #24
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    I just wished that the dogs were bred for their purpose and not just to "down-grade" them to make better show dogs, pretty and according to what is winning at the time.......newfies are a good example. Not many now look like the dog in the Canadian Standard, where they came from as a Utility dog, Some have useless hsow coats and they would drown with all the taht floofed coat weighing them down as just one example, Some are now even bred to drool less..............I think they should pass muster in the show ring according to standard/conformation and also the breeding dogs that are used should also show that they can work..be it water work for newfoundlands and Retreiving for labradors, sheep work for Kelpies or at least show the dogs can be trained and have stamina and can work for hours...i know there are some breeds this would not relate to as they were not bred for a purpose. But the Gundogs, utility and working dogs should be able to work.

    And health checks are a must.the dogs must be placed on an open register, which anyone can access. thsi has now happened with some breeders doing it voluntarily, like the newfies. i would never buy one if the Bitch and dog were not on this for the specific health problems in our breed.

    I also beleive there should be a stricter code of practise and had more severe penalties as to how breeding dogs are kept.....But as long as the low states that dogs are property, this will not happen.

    Just because you have dog, should not mean you should breed...i think there are way too many people in it just for making lots of money, even if they are ANKC registered they still keep theri dogs in a most unsavoury state and in my eyes are still puppy farms.registration means nothing, unless it is policed for the the benifit of the breed and dogs.....

    I hope to one day breed, but it will not be until I get one newfie bitch to be good at water work, Obedience, Conformation and very important in newfoundland dog, perfect temperament...that is often forgotten too. I was nearly there, but i lost her. I would get my Semen from dogs that would also have proved themself. I do not belive in kennels with many dogs that hardly have any contact with the owners......i beleive the puppies should have early socialisation and be part of the Family, that means in the house.....That would mean limited litters.

    I love the Breeder who is meticulous and very particular in who the puppies go to. So let it offend the potential owner..if you are a good dog owner, you have nothing to worry about. people will ask you and offer you puppies from their lines.........

    So it is not a perfect world

    I love pure breeds, But i also own a cross breed and love her dearly

    I also beleive people who do not rescue thier breed, do not have the right to Breed.......You are responsible for your puppies forever. Hopefully you have picked the right owner and never have to, but you should as a breeder still be involved withthe rescue of your breed..that is one thing we seem to have right in the newfoundland world in Australia..there will always be a place for a rescued newf, be it by the breedr who bred the dog or a breeder more local. If there are too many in Rescue, it means they have bred too many

    Just my views...i could go on and on, but the world is not perfect, sadly
    Pets are forever

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by newfsie View Post
    .I think they should pass muster in the show ring according to standard/conformation and also the breeding dogs that are used should also show that they can work..be it water work for newfoundlands and Retreiving for labradors, sheep work for Kelpies or at least show the dogs can be trained and have stamina and can work for hours...i know there are some breeds this would not relate to as they were not bred for a purpose. But the Gundogs, utility and working dogs should be able to work.
    The thing is that very few working bred Border collies or kelpies would pass muster in the show ring. My working bred Border collie looks nothing like a show bred BC. He is short coated, drop eared and is a couple of inches taller than any show bred. He is well angled, lean and muscled and he is bred for the terrain that he works on and can cast out for miles to put a scattered flock of sheep together in hilly, rocky terrain and bring them to me. He is not bred for specific looks rather for working ability and a physical type that suits the terrain. Working Border collies are very varied in their looks. My kelpie is one of the most athletic dogs I know and she is quite a different shape from a show bred. She is well angled, wasp waisted, bat eared and horrors she has a small white blaze on her chest lol, and will leap in and out of yards like a springbok.

    Working sheepdogs are purpose bred and often vary in their looks depending on the terrain and function. Border collies bred to work cattle may have physical requirements that differ from those bred to work sheep. Flat terrain may differ from mountain terrain etc. I know in some countries they try and breed dual purpose, showring and working dogs but I personally dont really see the point.

    Most people who want a showbred Border collie are never going to have anything to do with sheep and most breeders of showbreds I doubt have commercial sheep farms. The heavy coated showbred border collie would be largely unsuited to commercial sheep work. I had a showbred once and I had to clip her coat every year to protect her from the grass seeds and heat. The look of relief on her face when I shortened her coat was immense. Love my short coated working dogs.

    However many showbred collies I know do great at dog sports such as agility and obedience which is a great venue for them.

    Breeders of working Border collies and kelpies have zero interest in the showring. I doubt if most of them know such a thing exists. Maybe different from other working breeds. I personally am only interested in working bred dogs for my farm. Dont care what they look like as long as they come form good robust commercial working lines and can work.

  6. #26

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    good point about breeders taking back dogs. sometimes things do not work out ie new owner becomes too ill, loses their job, divorce etc. breeders need to maintain enough space and resources to be able to take back any dog they bred no questions asked unless it is health related.

    how many breeders even know how the litter turned out health wise, temperament wise etc, most have no clue where the puppies ended up or how they are going.

    creating new life is a lot of responsibility.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalacreek View Post
    Working sheepdogs are purpose bred and often vary in their looks depending on the terrain and function. Border collies bred to work cattle may have physical requirements that differ from those bred to work sheep. Flat terrain may differ from mountain terrain etc. I know in some countries they try and breed dual purpose, showring and working dogs but I personally dont really see the point.

    Most people who want a showbred Border collie are never going to have anything to do with sheep and most breeders of showbreds I doubt have commercial sheep farms. The heavy coated showbred border collie would be largely unsuited to commercial sheep work. I had a showbred once and I had to clip her coat every year to protect her from the grass seeds and heat. The look of relief on her face when I shortened her coat was immense. Love my short coated working dogs.

    However many showbred collies I know do great at dog sports such as agility and obedience which is a great venue for them.

    Breeders of working Border collies and kelpies have zero interest in the showring. I doubt if most of them know such a thing exists. Maybe different from other working breeds. I personally am only interested in working bred dogs for my farm. Dont care what they look like as long as they come form good robust commercial working lines and can work.
    Well I think that sadly we should have kept the working BC and Kelpies in the show-ring too....That is actually what i meant, we are now breeding for looks. I love good looks, but I still think that we should keep true to the breed..but as i also said..in a perfect world.

    I actaully did show my kelpies and also did quite well at herding with them at Field days....Just like now, I show my newfies now and do Drafting, Obedience, Rally and Water work with them
    Pets are forever

  8. #28
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    If only some breeders did care about their dogs but unfortunately that's not the case...especially GSD breeders. Some will sell pups to anyone even people in their 80's and don't give a stuff about health or temperament...just the money.

    Many will not take their dogs back under any circumstances and won't contribute financially to help GSD rescue kennel and feed their dogs when dumped or surrendered and I don't think it's going to change any time soon either. I would also like to mention it's not just the breeders either...some people are just as bad.

    Please scroll to the Welfare Report to see how bad it really is and this is only one report.

    http://www.gsdl.info/Shepherd_News_October_2014.pdf
    Chloe & Zorro
    Rottweilers and German Shepherds are Family

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogman View Post
    Some will sell pups to anyone even people in their 80's and don't give a stuff about health or temperament...just the money.
    An old lady came into work the other day with a large male GSD. The dog was nuts, no manners and was reactive to every person that walked past him... I wasn't game to approach him! The lady was having a hard time keeping him under control, he was very strong!! Its a shame his temperament wasn't great, he was gorgeous and looked very healthy!

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by newfsie View Post
    Well I think that sadly we should have kept the working BC and Kelpies in the show-ring too....That is actually what i meant, we are now breeding for looks. I love good looks, but I still think that we should keep true to the breed..but as i also said..in a perfect world.

    I actaully did show my kelpies and also did quite well at herding with them at Field days....Just like now, I show my newfies now and do Drafting, Obedience, Rally and Water work with them
    To be honest I dont think the top working breeders would have any interest in the show ring at all. The people I get my working dogs from run a commercial farm a very long way from the city. They select their dog specifically for working. The show ring is of no relevence at all to them. Their reputation is based solely on the working quality of their dogs. Their dogs are very lean and tough often any white tinged with red dust, ears often grizzled and I am sure would cause most show judges to faint in shock LOL. Some operatiions have paid $10,000 for dogs from proven working lines, because it can often save them the cost of a workman.

    I know one experienced stockman has said that people are now breeding dogs specifically for herding trials and he believes it is ruining the breed as too much focus is put on the requirements of the trial ring. He believes true working dogs are bred specifically for the commercial job. Not that a good dog shouldnt be able to trial but the priority is the traits needed for commercial work.

    I am not sure how you would set a physical standard for a working BC they are so varied in looks. Same with kelpies and many have huntaway and collie infusions in them specifically to strengthen certain working traits. Round here Huntaway infusion is common with farmers for various reasons. Many showbred kelpies are red, and white not allowed. Some top red kelpies I know have a flash of white are they culled because they have a few white hairs?

    Certainly if I was running a big livestock operation my interest would not be in a breeder who tried to breed for both work and showing. That is my personal opinion anyway.

    I think of a tough old shearer and stockman friend of mine who breeds working kelpies. He popped by one day to show off a promising pup he was training for a local farmer and saw the ribbons I have from dog sports. I explained about it all and he just laughed and laughed. He was totally incredulous that people would do such things with their working dogs. I didnt even bother to talk about people showing dogs, he would have thought they were all mad lol. His idea of a good working dog is one that has proven itself in the yards day after day pushing hundreds of sheep through the yards.
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 04-14-2015 at 08:45 PM.

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