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Thread: mutts and bitzas vs pedigree dogs, responsible breeding

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by newfsie View Post
    If you have the time..read this article. i like how it is written and fits into this subject...sadly it does happen...hence we need to go back to working the dogs


    It's What's Up Front That Counts - American Kennel Club
    Yes it is interesting. I was working my kelpie on sheep today and she has wonderful front end angulation (and rear end as well). It certainly enables her to fluidly work in the classic kelpie crouch. She also sails over yard panels. She has the most superb body structure of all my dogs and the athletiscm with which she works is a pleasure to watch. Love watching her stetch out, her spine is so flexible she is almost cat like.

    It is a shame that the show dogs drift away from the structure that has defined their working ability. Showbred Border collies have certain in many cases been bred so they are losing the flexibility in their spines and the super heavy coats would be a hindrance in a work setting.

    With sheepdogs there are working breeders so I dont really concern myself with the show world and their strange ways of assessing dogs. Not sure it is going to change anytime soon. Even if they got the structure right there is still the question of assessing working traits and unless you work the dogs that would be a bit hit and miss.

    To me the showring has little to do with the original purpose of breeds so I guess many will split into show or working bred. It would be a shame if breeders who are still trying to breed for both showring and work are penalised because of fashion that reduces function.

  2. #102

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    A good article. Shame that it won't get the attention it needs to make enough difference..... Looks are everything in the ring, even if they not actualy "correct" for a truely sound conformation. There are so many exagerations even in my breed that is relatively 'normal' looking and none contrubute to any workability in the breed,but are solely cosmetic.

    Kala,
    My older bitch is also incredibly agile, I've often compared her to a kelpie there. At 9 yo she still leaps the fences from a stand. There have been times I've literaly covered my eyes thinking "shes not going to make it!" But she does. Shes my little pin ball the way she she bounces off things. 9 years is her breed average for longevity, so I'm very proud of her and pleased that her near giant daughter( 29 ins going on 2 years) takes after her. I love seeing such a big girl so agile, though her mother could run rings around almost any dog.
    Last edited by Strange fruit; 05-24-2015 at 08:49 AM.

  3. #103
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    Does that article have diagrams or pictures. I'm having trouble imagining what they mean by what it says - ie relative to what where is upright/sloping/right angle...

    My dog has no trouble doing the crouching walk or even a "bandy legged, I'm a short dog really" greeting for her favourite people...

  4. #104

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    Hmmm...I thought it refered to the trend I've noticed where in a stacked position, the front end appears to be noticably higher set than the rear?

  5. #105
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    Stacked dog - especially the GSD - definitely like a sort of action ready lean with the front end and head up high and the back end down low.

    My dog generally carries herself the other way around (low front end and high butt) except when she was getting her wither's height measured for agility height card. Something to do with the fresh cooked sausage one of the officials was using to keep her interest and stop her from nicking off. She went all thingy about it despite me trying to train her to stand under a bar for months before we went for official measuring. I think she snuck into the correct height class - just. 1cm in it. sigh.

  6. #106

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    The gsd stack has become pure farce and the double handling to get the extended gait, well how can people be so superficial and ridiculous. These people have somehow set the standard and direction of the breed, retarded, destructive money grubbing vandals.

  7. #107
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    It is scary in newfies..they have the dogs changing into a fluffy useless lumbering dog...i do agility with mine, not competition, but especially Annabelle she is an awesome jumper and loves Tunnel, see-saws the walk and A frame. She also swims and does high end Obdience....she would never win in the show ring and the dogs that do would never be able to jump and do all the stuff she does. She is an eight year old sound newfie. As is our Lukey who loves to pull heavy weights and will pull our kayak to the beach from the car....try that with some of the show winners. i find it very sad, that the sound/fit dogs are over-looked, because they do not have to coats (we swim too much)..those heavy show coats could drown the dogs, my dogs are easy to just air dry and swim again..the new shwo lines need to be constantly dryer blown..i struggle with this all the time....but at least there seem to be some people who are now wanting the working line back in and suddenly they are more popular...i wish it was part of a true championship, to show work ability or at least some form to show soundness
    Pets are forever

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    Does that article have diagrams or pictures. I'm having trouble imagining what they mean by what it says - ie relative to what where is upright/sloping/right angle...

    My dog has no trouble doing the crouching walk or even a "bandy legged, I'm a short dog really" greeting for her favourite people...
    The scapula or shoulder blade can be more or less upright. The more laid back the shoulder blade the better the reach of the stride and the better the shock absorbancy of the joints. Best thing is to get a book on structure or perhaps google it for how you assess shoulder layback and the front assembly. I guess when I talk crouch, my kelpie works in a very fluid manner where she is not crouched to the ground so to speak but moves cat like I guess with long fluid strides not totally upright. She can work like this all day and at speed with a lot of manouvreability. My BC has a straighter shoulder and although very athletic is less fluid and graceful. With a good shoulder layback at a moderate trot the front leg will extend and the paw intersect in line with a line drawn down to the ground from the dogs nose. You can see this length of stride in my kelpie which gives a more powerful fluid motion than a shorter stride. There is also more area for muscle attachment which gives the dog more power. She also has an even topline and well angled rear assembly. I just know by watching and working her that her structure is really good.

    A lower front end would indicate that your dog is probably loading her front end and it also reduces power in the rear end.

    There are a couple of good books from Clean Run on structure.

  9. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by newfsie View Post
    It is scary in newfies..they have the dogs changing into a fluffy useless lumbering dog...i do agility with mine, not competition, but especially Annabelle she is an awesome jumper and loves Tunnel, see-saws the walk and A frame. She also swims and does high end Obdience....she would never win in the show ring and the dogs that do would never be able to jump and do all the stuff she does. She is an eight year old sound newfie. As is our Lukey who loves to pull heavy weights and will pull our kayak to the beach from the car....try that with some of the show winners. i find it very sad, that the sound/fit dogs are over-looked, because they do not have to coats (we swim too much)..those heavy show coats could drown the dogs, my dogs are easy to just air dry and swim again..the new shwo lines need to be constantly dryer blown..i struggle with this all the time....but at least there seem to be some people who are now wanting the working line back in and suddenly they are more popular...i wish it was part of a true championship, to show work ability or at least some form to show soundness
    No, According to my studies, thats a lot of the reason purpose is being lost even out side of The K.Cs ( NOT open working registries Kala)

    Show standard breeding can only ever turn out show dogs, effectively.

    People try to raise awarness of working traits being lost, so breed clubs introduce trials to to give this an added value to show dogs...A title to prove ability. Trouble is these K.C run trials are generaly only open to K. C registered pedigree dogs- then these trials are promoted as "Proof" of predictable and superior ability. Whole new training methods are arrived at through noting whats working in the pedigree world, promoted as THE method to follow along with what drives suit these training methods.
    The science is geared from the start to suit the predictable traits in pure breeds, which are refined to suit the trial.

    The general public who actualy use the dogs in every day life for working purposes are unable to "prove" their non-recognised dogs. They are not permitted to compete.Real life, on the job experience is denied credibility or comparison, as are the dogs not recognised by the K.Cs.

    They, and their purpose, are devalued and decline outside of K.C protocols.

    The pedigree dogs are unopposed at these trials till the dogs and methods are excepted as the only accepted standards. The K.Cs have a monoploly on events beause there are few other organisations with the same ability and support to organise them. And we lose so much each time this happens.
    The trials and working abilities become ever more specialised and exclusive with no input from those who use the dogs every day in their own specific environments, for their own purposes. Exclusivity brings marginalization and eventualy the PRACTICES excepted to acheive success come under fire. Support bases have been elliminated in exlusivity, because support has to come from the people who USE the dogs.

    The lasting effects are that dogs are further devalued in society( so when we don't value some thing, we tend to neglect our responsibilities to it) and after all that, the pedigree dogs are still unable to effectively meet needs.

    We end up with a situation like the with the Greys, whos whole "purpose" is now under threat. The purpose is irrelevent to most people. The practices that have been accepted in its own exclusive circle are contrary to expectations.
    Change can't happen with out environmental input. So current practices have not kept pace with expectations of society.
    Last edited by Strange fruit; 05-26-2015 at 09:06 AM.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange fruit View Post
    No, According to my studies, thats a lot of the reason purpose is being lost even out side of The K.Cs ( NOT open working registries Kala)

    Show standard breeding can only ever turn out show dogs, effectively.

    People try to raise awarness of working traits being lost, so breed clubs introduce trials to to give this an added value to show dogs...A title to prove ability. Trouble is these K.C run trials are generaly only open to K. C registered pedigree dogs- then these trials are promoted as "Proof" of predictabe ability. Whole new training methods are arrived at through noting whats working in the pedigree world, promoted as THE method to follow along with what drives suit these training methods.
    The science is geared from the start to suit the predictable traits in pure breeds, which are refined to suit the trial.

    The general public who actualy use the dogs in every day life for working purposes are unable to "prove" their non-recognised dogs. Real life, on the job experience is denied credibility or comparison, as are the dogs not recognised by the K.Cs. They are devalued.

    The pedigree dogs are unopposed at these trials till the dogs and methods are excepted as the only accepted standards. And we lose so much each time this happens.
    The trials and working abilities become ever more specialised and exclusive with no input from those who use the dogs every day in their own specific environments, for their own purposes. Exclusivity brings marginalization and eventualy the PRACTICES excepted to acheive success come under fire. Support bases have been elliminated in exlusivity, because support has to come from the people who USE the dogs.

    The lasting effects are that dogs are further devalued in society( so when we don't value some thing, we tend to neglect our responsibilities to it) and after all that, the pedigree dogs are still unable to effectively meet needs.

    We end up with a situation like the with the Greys, whos whole "purpose" is now under threat. The purpose is irrelevent to most people. The practices that have been accepted in its own exclusive circle are contrary to expectations.
    Change can't happen with out environmental input. So current practices have not kept pace with expectations of society.
    Fortunately with ANKC herding trials they are open to anything that looks like it is of a working breed origin. Certainly the sporting registered dogs are allowed as their working registration is recognised by ANKC but I also have an associate registered cattle dog and she would be allowed to compete if I chose as a recognisable working breed by the judges. The dogs obviously have to undergo an instinct test and pre trial qualifications before they are allowed to trial. If they fail this then it is a no go.

    It is interesting though that the majority of dogs I compete against at these trials are sporting registered working bred dogs. There are currently only a couple of showbreds competing. Quite a few of the show dogs seem to fail to progress beyond the instinct test, or they stall at the pre trial tests.

    There are those working breeders who believe that herding trialing is ruining the working dog as more an more weekend warriors are wanting dogs specifically bred to herd and win on 3 sheep. It is pretty tricky as roles of dogs change to suit us humans.
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 05-26-2015 at 09:07 AM.

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