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Thread: mutts and bitzas vs pedigree dogs, responsible breeding

  1. #91
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    You and I still have a different interpretation of pedigree lol. My dogs are pedigreed dogs - working pedigrees! They are the back bone of good lines of working dogs over generations of breeding and carry information on the working traits etc.

    Not sure why you are so defensive, plenty of working breeders mix and match to get lines of dogs suited to certain environments, it is nothing new really. The odd splash of kelpies, huntaways cattle dogs find their way into lines of collies and visa versa depending on what is required. They can be documented in their working pedigrees on working registers. There are plenty of kelpie collie crosses etc with papers that have been purpose bred. If you were to continue your line of dogs then you would create your own pedigree, I know people in the working world who have created their own lines.

  2. #92
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    65kg dogs - that's bigger than me - yikes.

    So I'm guessing some sort of mastiff - we used to have a regular here who bred Neopolitan mastiff outside of the the ANKC system because the ANKC dogs were desperately unhealthy - especially when it came to their eyes. But probably the joints too.

    Yes this is definitely a forum where bettering the health of a breed - especially one in that much trouble can be openly and calmly discussed.

    I think it's largely about the motiviation or intention. Winning beauty contests or making lots of money - are not good motivators for breeding healthy dogs who are good at the job they were bred for.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange fruit View Post
    You are lucky there is still community involvement in water rescue, that helps a lot that there are even pockets of people who still appreciate the dogs original purpose, and utilise that.

    The purpose for my breed is still there, but these days catered to by specialist breeders and trainers only. Trials are used to judge suitability ( with a huge failure rate by both I might add) and the end result is that most are entirely unsuited to my own situation, which must include utility since I won't have dogs that are raised with a "kenneling unless in use" mentality. My dogs are very much a part of the family. My breed in particular, trainers will generaly not touch any more for the role they were bred for.

    True of several of the breeds traditionaly used for the role.
    Iwould just love to know what your breed it..........i am off ot Europe for 7 weeks of Water Rescue Training with the "real" water rescue people. From the UK, to Finland (Finland has so many awesome trainers for everything), to Estonia, to Demark, To Belgium, Italy and back to the UK, all these places where Newfies and other breeds (Leo's, Labs, GR'' and the like) get used in water Rescue... I just cannot wait to see all these working dogs. being used as they should be
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  4. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalacreek View Post
    You and I still have a different interpretation of pedigree lol. My dogs are pedigreed dogs - working pedigrees! They are the back bone of good lines of working dogs over generations of breeding and carry information on the working traits etc.

    Not sure why you are so defensive, plenty of working breeders mix and match to get lines of dogs suited to certain environments, it is nothing new really. The odd splash of kelpies, huntaways cattle dogs find their way into lines of collies and visa versa depending on what is required. They can be documented in their working pedigrees on working registers. There are plenty of kelpie collie crosses etc with papers that have been purpose bred. If you were to continue your line of dogs then you would create your own pedigree, I know people in the working world who have created their own lines.
    Kala, I don't think we do have such a different idea of what a pedigree is. As you say, yours are working pedigree, open and unrecognised by ANKC. Where I am critical of pedigrees is ONLY when it is a closed system, that forbids its members from breeding out side of that system. If the effects were only on dogs IN that system, I could happily let them go their own way. But it most definitely is not.The effects are insidious and far more more damaging than can be seen with out studying it in depth.

    The open, working registries seem to work quite well for the most part. Too tight lines will cause problems, but they are also easier to avoid for those who chose other methods to arrive. There is subtle pressure on open registries to close their books. They are not recognised by ANKC or most affiliates, though I think the WKC is safe in its numbers, diversity and purpose . I do hope that not too many try to bring in show lines to "improve" on that though, because the effects would be deletorous to the working lines if there was a prolonged influx of show lines. Let them stay separate. The purposes are in opposition.

    There IS NO working registry ATM that would even look at my dogs, while those the closed system does accept with out question are failing fast.

    To top that off, the prejudice, slander and villification of people like myself is insane when it is not based on any whole science, just pieces that complement their own ideals. Yeah, that does make you pretty defensive. Rather hypocritical when I can honestly say a very high proportion of ANKC members can't claim to breed with as much thought , understanding or care of their "product". Or health testing.
    Square pegs in round holes. They go in, but the gaps are are invisible because they only look that it fits, not weather it fits tight and seamless.

    I am a Backyard breeder. No other word for it. Try being mellow when 'Working breeders" is a term used with as much derrision. My dogs are working dogs, yes. But because they are bred outside of any system that will recognise them as such, or even look at them, Back yard breeder is the only term I can use with any recognition.
    Last edited by Strange fruit; 05-19-2015 at 02:33 PM.

  5. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by newfsie View Post
    Iwould just love to know what your breed it..........i am off ot Europe for 7 weeks of Water Rescue Training with the "real" water rescue people. From the UK, to Finland (Finland has so many awesome trainers for everything), to Estonia, to Demark, To Belgium, Italy and back to the UK, all these places where Newfies and other breeds (Leo's, Labs, GR'' and the like) get used in water Rescue... I just cannot wait to see all these working dogs. being used as they should be
    And it would be nice to be able to be more open....but if I am, I'm hindered from being able to speak out.

    Newfies I have a very soft spot for, being born in Canada near the water.... Sounds like fantastic time ahead for you!

  6. #96

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    Not mastiff, not traditionaly a giant breed, though not un common either. Thats been a side effect that maybe 3/4 have been quite big. Far more robust looking than accepted norms these days. Sorry I can't be more specific. Its bigger than me too!

    Motivation/intention = purpose, so yeah, thats what I think we should be focusing on too. Interesting that biologicaly speaking, a closed population system that does not recognise its environment loses its purpose, Does not take any responsibility for its environment, so loses the support of its environment, becomming an antagonist.
    Last edited by Strange fruit; 05-19-2015 at 02:42 PM.

  7. #97
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    I feel that if a dog is bred for a purpose it would have to be a great dog ........I truly love working dogs. I love doing work withthe working BC's and I know quite a few are not ANKC registered, but their working ability is just awesome. I will laways respect that. Also the German koolie. I have worked with quite a few, love them. As I have also owrked with some working Rotties on cattle and was amazed at their workability and they were not regitered...But to me in a perfect world they would be registered and still keep theri working ability and soundness....so I could just follow those lines forever and have records of all of them

    PS have met some mamazing sled dogs that were not registerd with anything over seas......wow, awesome dogs and who would not want them in theri working Husky lineage
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  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by newfsie View Post
    I feel that if a dog is bred for a purpose it would have to be a great dog ........I truly love working dogs. I love doing work withthe working BC's and I know quite a few are not ANKC registered, but their working ability is just awesome. I will laways respect that. Also the German koolie. I have worked with quite a few, love them. As I have also owrked with some working Rotties on cattle and was amazed at their workability and they were not regitered...But to me in a perfect world they would be registered and still keep theri working ability and soundness....so I could just follow those lines forever and have records of all of them

    PS have met some mamazing sled dogs that were not registerd with anything over seas......wow, awesome dogs and who would not want them in theri working Husky lineage
    But they are often registered! just not on the ANKC registers. Nearly all my working dogs are on working registers. They are Working Kelpie council registered, WASDA registered and my Koolie is registered with the Working Australian Koolie Association. They all have their documented lineage. There is also a working Border collies register. My Border collie comes from a mix of registered Australian working and ISDS lines and his lines go back forever.

    The ANKC register in Australia is largely irrelevant to working sheepdog lines.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange fruit View Post
    Kala, I don't think we do have such a different idea of what a pedigree is. As you say, yours are working pedigree, open and unrecognised by ANKC. Where I am critical of pedigrees is ONLY when it is a closed system, that forbids its members from breeding out side of that system. If the effects were only on dogs IN that system, I could happily let them go their own way. But it most definitely is not.The effects are insidious and far more more damaging than can be seen with out studying it in depth.

    The open, working registries seem to work quite well for the most part. Too tight lines will cause problems, but they are also easier to avoid for those who chose other methods to arrive. There is subtle pressure on open registries to close their books. They are not recognised by ANKC or most affiliates, though I think the WKC is safe in its numbers, diversity and purpose . I do hope that not too many try to bring in show lines to "improve" on that though, because the effects would be deletorous to the working lines if there was a prolonged influx of show lines. Let them stay separate. The purposes are in opposition.

    There IS NO working registry ATM that would even look at my dogs, while those the closed system does accept with out question are failing fast.

    To top that off, the prejudice, slander and villification of people like myself is insane when it is not based on any whole science, just pieces that complement their own ideals. Yeah, that does make you pretty defensive. Rather hypocritical when I can honestly say a very high proportion of ANKC members can't claim to breed with as much thought , understanding or care of their "product". Or health testing.
    Square pegs in round holes. They go in, but the gaps are are invisible because they only look that it fits, not weather it fits tight and seamless.

    I am a Backyard breeder. No other word for it. Try being mellow when 'Working breeders" is a term used with as much derrision. My dogs are working dogs, yes. But because they are bred outside of any system that will recognise them as such, or even look at them, Back yard breeder is the only term I can use with any recognition.

    The ANKC recognises WAWSDA, WKC, WORKING Koolie Association because it allows dogs with these registrations to be registered as sporting dogs to compete in dog sports with no need to be sterilised. A dog with no registration is recognised as a mutt and is placed on the associate register with a sterilisation requirement. What angers owners of "sporting dogs" is that their breed is noted as "sporting dog", so a WKC registered kelpie, even one with the highest WKC registration on the ANKC sporting register is not recognised as a kelpie. So although the ANKC regonises them as suitable for breeding their actual breed and lineage is not acknowledged on their ANKC registration papers.

    Hell would freeze over before working breeders would use showbred kelpies of Border collies in their lines so there is no fear of that where I live LOL. Besides they would need WASDA registration before they would be bred by many breeders and that means a tough assessment on stock by certified working dog assessors. I cant see them closing a register like that which is open to any dog of any working breed or cross thereof that can pass the stringent working assessment as a sheepdog.

    I know ANKC breeder who are BYBs. My neighbours breed their own working dogs outside any registration system and do they care? not in the slightest, they breed what they want for their own purposes.

    If you are breeding in an ethical manner and are happy with your dogs I am not sure why you would worry what the ANKC registered breeders think of you. Heck I know ANKC breeders who I would class as BYBs or worse still puppy mills. We got our first whippet from a "BYB" who bred working whippets outside any system. He was an excellent dog.

  10. #100
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    If you have the time..read this article. i like how it is written and fits into this subject...sadly it does happen...hence we need to go back to working the dogs


    It's What's Up Front That Counts - American Kennel Club
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