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Thread: Kelpie x beagle

  1. #31
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    Glad to see OP has changed their mind as there are plenty of dogs and puppies in pounds and shelters wanting loving homes.

    Backyard breeders and Puppy millers only care about one thing...Money and many Registered breeders are no different...I can't understand how people just don't see this. As breeding dogs is not illegal any clown can...the reason pounds and shelters are full.

    If people stopped buying dogs from these lowlifes and pet shops I'm sure this would go a long way to solving the problem and don't expect the Government or R$PCA to do anything either. Some people are also responsible for the pounds and shelters being full too...they buy from a backyarder or Registered Breeder then realize they can't handle the dog then dump them.

    Ethical Registered Breeders...Code of Ethics...Guarantees...what does this all mean ? The answer is nothing...in other words a load of Crap because if it was true we wouldn't have Dogs with common health problems over and over again and the price going up and up as well...in many cases Registered Breeders are no different to backyard breeders and it's the poor dog and owner that suffers.

    Below are two Welfare reports to give you all an idea of what some people and Registered Breeders are like.
    Note: these reports are available to anyone on line. Please scroll to Welfare report.

    http://www.gsdl.info/Shepherd_News_April_2014.pdf

    http://www.gsdl.info/Shepherd_News_October_2014.pdf
    Last edited by Dogman; 03-22-2015 at 09:22 AM.
    Chloe & Zorro
    Rottweilers and German Shepherds are Family

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogman View Post
    Glad to see OP has changed their mind as there are plenty of dogs and puppies in pounds and shelters wanting loving homes.

    Backyard breeders and Puppy millers only care about one thing...Money and many Registered breeders are no different...I can't understand how people just don't see this. As breeding dogs is not illegal any clown can...the reason pounds and shelters are full.

    If people stopped buying dogs from these lowlifes and pet shops I'm sure this would go a long way to solving the problem and don't expect the Government or R$PCA to do anything either. Some people are also responsible for the pounds and shelters being full too...they buy from a backyarder or Registered Breeder then realize they can't handle the dog then dump them.

    Ethical Registered Breeders...Code of Ethics...Guarantees...what does this all mean ? The answer is nothing...in other words a load of Crap because if it was true we wouldn't have Dogs with common health problems over and over again and the price going up and up as well...in many cases Registered Breeders are no different to backyard breeders and it's the poor dog and owner that suffers.

    Below are two Welfare reports to give you all an idea of what some people and Registered Breeders are like.
    Note: these reports are available to anyone on line. Please scroll to Welfare report.

    http://www.gsdl.info/Shepherd_News_April_2014.pdf

    http://www.gsdl.info/Shepherd_News_October_2014.pdf
    You have some good points.

    However there are ethical breeders and there are breeders who know their dogs and you will never find their dogs in a rescue situation. I remember one breeder wouldnt tell me if she had pups untill she had spoken to me for at length, then I had to drive 600 kms for an interview, which went both ways I might add because I wanted to look at all her information on the lines.

    I then spoke to a number of people who I knew had her dogs. It was a rather a long protracted process. One working breeder wanted to know exactly how much work I had for dogs if he were to sell me one of his. I only have 300 sheep so I didnt get a look in as his dogs are in high demand from much larger commercial operators. Some working breeders will euthanaise any dog that they consider poor quality within their programs. One breeder of commercial working dogs said that he would not let any poor quality pup leave his premises. He generally keeps the pups till they are at least 4-5 months old so he can assess them and match them up with buyers.

    Unfortunately there appear to be many more "clowns" breeding dogs than ethical breeders. They buying public is largely uneducated about buying dogs. I most certainly was and had a couple of terrific dogs untill I got one with elbow dysplasia and a poor temperament. Heck I had never even heard of ED and I grew up in a world where the internet was not a feature in my younger years, so information was not as freely accessible. That dog was a turning point in my life to a much greater knowledge.

    There was one thing I did know even in my reletive ignorance about dogs is that when I bought my first dog, a cattle dog that she would be high drive and high maintenence and I was totally prepared for that. To me that is just common sense regardless of what else you may or may not know. I never understand it when people get a breed of dog that they are totally unprepared for, particularly with the information availble these days.

  3. #33

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    I think there is many clowns in BYB as registered, the registered breeders are just better dressed and have cool websites.

    how many ANKC GSD, ACD, Labrador, BC, Kelpie.....etc can get their own job done, a few flukes here and there.


    seems it is not the ANKC's inclination to police welfare, ethics and standards. it is not the breed clubs job, no pressure on the breeders from anyone profiting from more dogs being bred ie breeder, breed club, ANKC ..... but they all want to be the legitimate authority handing out registration fees, trial fees, show fees, club fees.


    fees, fees, fees and talk - that's who and what is the extent of the leadership in dog world.


    no matter if it is BYB, commercial puppy factory or registered breed kennel, the bottom line is exactly the same $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.


    individual cases may vary.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by muttboy View Post
    I think there is many clowns in BYB as registered, the registered breeders are just better dressed and have cool websites.

    how many ANKC GSD, ACD, Labrador, BC, Kelpie.....etc can get their own job done, a few flukes here and there.


    seems it is not the ANKC's inclination to police welfare, ethics and standards. it is not the breed clubs job, no pressure on the breeders from anyone profiting from more dogs being bred ie breeder, breed club, ANKC ..... but they all want to be the legitimate authority handing out registration fees, trial fees, show fees, club fees.


    fees, fees, fees and talk - that's who and what is the extent of the leadership in dog world.


    no matter if it is BYB, commercial puppy factory or registered breed kennel, the bottom line is exactly the same $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.


    individual cases may vary.
    I think the majority of ANKC breeders do not breed their dogs as working dogs, they breed them to a physical standard which is tested in the showring. A few may dabble in a bit of working but it is not serious business like it is for a working breeder.

    I have owned one showbred Border collie and the rest of my current dogs are all working bred. The showbred is actually a wonderful family pet, she lives with family in the city and is the perfect dog for a young family. She comes from a breeder who has a small number of breeding dogs, was raised as a pup in the breeders house and well socialised with children, which I thnk is why she loves them. Her breeder sent me her parents hip and elbow scores and their clearance for all the BC genetic diseases. She is a fit, smart, healthy, beautiful dog and cost me $700. She is of no use as a working dog but as a suburban pet she is perfect.

    I know there were the Border collie wars in America where the very mention of breeding border collies as show dogs is like red rag to a bull for the people who firmly believe that what defines a Border collie is its working ability as one of the best sheepdogs breeds in the world. They called the showdogs Barbie collies. I see their point but I am a bit meh about it all. There are plenty of working breeders breeding top notch working collies and they are very easy to distinguish from an Australian showline BC. I know some very nice showline Border collies who are perfect for suburban families and all dont do too bad in the sporting ring.

    My working bred Border collie is super high drive but has a good off switich. He will work sheep till he drops and in the wrong hands he would have been a disaster. Mind you his breeder will only sell to people who want a working dog for livestock work.

    I have known ANKC registered breeders who are nothing more than puppymills except they dont sell to pet shops, but I also know quite a lot who really wouldnt be making a lot of money from their dogs. They breed small numbers and routinely do all the health testing. I know in our state there have been a number of breeder suspensions for breaking certain codes, they are always listed in the monthly journal. Yes there are fees but it costs to keep up the trialing areas, lighting towers, clubhouses, staff and there is also investment into genetic diseases. We often have a good grizzle as to how some fees are spent lol, but it there is a fair bit of infrastructure and upkeep involved.

    Individual cases do vary but on the whole if I wasnt specifically looking for a working dog I would start off finding a good registered breeder rather than a BYB who just throws a couple of dogs together. My own personal pet hate is working dogs breeds like collies and kelpies crossed with a poodle or some other small fluffy.
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 03-22-2015 at 03:36 PM.

  5. #35
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    an ethical buyer should know what the breeder is thinking in a particular pairing.
    LOL - I was never very good at mental telepathy.

    But I guess if the breeder doesn't keep good records on breeding lines and performance - then you know that you're not dealing with an ethical breeder - even if you're not telepathic.

    I think quite a lot of the problem is that the only recourse we have for dodgy puppies is that you return the dodgy puppy to the breeder. Most puppy owners can't do that (despite how many get dumped or abandoned). I know one lady with a very sick Labrador that should not have been sold ever... and her children - who do not look after it - would not let her return it because they knew it would be pts for being nearly blind and not being able to walk properly and generally being terrified of the world.

    I think one thing that might help is if puppy buyers can claim vet fees from the seller - on an ongoing basis. With a limit of some cap of some sort but something that makes it uneconomic to breed and sell unhealthy pets. Instead of just having to return it. Say up to $15,000 or 10x the sale price of the dog over the lifetime of the dog.

    Not sure about the OP deciding to support rescue or ethical breeders - the next post was where can he (or she) get a beaglier... argh. Hopefully OP has been back and had a look and decided not to do that either.

    Thinking maybe I should split this thread into the stuff relevant to OP and stuff about ethical breeders? (like this post if you think that's a good idea).

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    LOL - I was never very good at mental telepathy.


    I think one thing that might help is if puppy buyers can claim vet fees from the seller - on an ongoing basis. With a limit of some cap of some sort but something that makes it uneconomic to breed and sell unhealthy pets. Instead of just having to return it. Say up to $15,000 or 10x the sale price of the dog over the lifetime of the dog.
    I think the lawyers would be the winners out of that one. A dog that does its cruciate - is it beause it is sterilised too young, exercised to young, too fat or was it because it was too straight in the stifle. Some breeds are straight in the stifle and high risk anyway.

    What about the occassinal case of HD despite all the appropriate screening being in place - it can and does happen. Could early sterilisation be called to blame, or the dogs diet and environmental factors or just an unfortunate roll of the dice. Would be a nightmare.

    The only things I think that you could claim without any doubt would be the clearcut genetic diseases that occur if a carrier is bred to a carrier. The disease that you can conclusively test for and prove beyond doubt was purely as a result of the breeder not testing their dogs.

    Yeah proably a good idea to split thread although a lot of what has been discussed is relevant to people looking for "designer" type crosses or what to be aware of when looking for a breeder.

  7. #37
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    clearcut genetic diseases that occur if a carrier is bred to a carrier. The disease that you can conclusively test for and prove beyond doubt was purely as a result of the breeder not testing their dogs.
    This is the kind of thing I was thinking of. Stuff like PRA blindness, problems from doubling up on merle genes (deafness and blindness), that horrid disease that Border Collies can get that kills them before they get to be one year old...

    Hip Scores - if the breeder has done the testing and the hip scores are low risk and the puppy has a problem - the breeder has done their best and should not be liable. But if the breeder didn't do any testing or has repeated the pairing despite the puppies from the previous litter having problems - then they should pay.

    And the pay out should be capped - so the lawyers have less to go after. eg if the buyer paid $1500 - the payout would be capped at $15,000 or what ever was spent before the puppy died (the lower of these) which would not really be worth a lawyer's time. I would think it would be more through consumer affairs - the same way appliance warranty gets dealt with except the buyer does not have to return the puppy.

    Anyway - that's the point of announcing an idea and having people throw flaws at it - so you get an idea that has been thoroughly tested - and might have a chance of doing what's intended.

    Ie the idea is to take the profit out of selling unhealthy puppies.

    With dog temperament - it would be hard to prove (with today's tech) that the breeder contributed to a bad tempered puppy -> adult dog, but if you could track a pattern of dangerous dogs back to one breeder because the dogs were all microchipped and the database kept the breeder info - then something could be done. This would be more like selling a car with faulty brakes.

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