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Thread: Kelpie x beagle

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by muttboy View Post
    I disagree that because someone is a licensed breeder that means they are automatically ethical, do all health checks and are producing quality dogs. please educate me to what exactly the code of conduct from the ANKC is and how it enforces it.

    your claims are unsubstantiated and imo marketing hype that pure-bred breeders like to promote.

    I am not saying licenced breeders are all unethical or low quality, ii am saying that because they are licenced does not mean they are.

    just like BYB.

    as far as I know most pet shops are mainly supplied by puppy mills which are legal operations, food, shelter and water...that is the only requirement.

    I know in the states that many puppy mills of the most absurd scale of mass production are completely legal.

    you might want to define what a quality dog is as well if you associate licenced breeders with quality.

    I am honestly not sure of the facts and hope I made it clear what is my opinion but do licenced breeders have mandatory health HD, ED, DV ..... tests, where is the list that must follow, I really want to see this.


    I hope you are right and I am wrong.
    Certainly not all registered ANKC breeders are ethical. There have been complaints over the years about the quality of certain breeds with regards to hip and elbow dysplasias and other conditions. In the last few years the ANKC has reacted by requiring mandatory hip and elbow screening and screening for certain diseases in a number of high risk breeds. No screening, no registration. I belong to the ANKC because I trial my dogs and I see notices of suspension of breeders who have broken certain codes. Go onto the ANKC site in your state to look up the code of ethics and health screening requirements of certain breeds. ANKC breeders would be suspended if they supplied pet shops.

    Because I need working dogs I buy from working dog breeders or get pups proven proven working dogs so I dont usually buy ANKC registered dogs. I do have several though from before I moved to the farm. I have a couple that came with guarantees (certificates supplied) of being clear from PRA, CEA, TNS and various other genetic diseases plus hip and elbow scores from their parents.

    I did get caught some years ago getting a pup from an ANKC registered breeder who did no screening and the pup was diagnosed at 12 months old with elbow dysplasia. That cost me plenty. You may get lucky or you may get caught with a problem which usually always ends in heartache.

    I avoid any breeder that does not have a comprehensive health screening program in place and that includes working dogs. If I do a custom working dog breeding from dogs that havent been screened but have the qualities I want, I generally work with the owners and we share the costs of the health testing along with the other people who want pups from that specific breeding. Generally the lines are well known and working people know well when problems emerge in certain lines because working dogs have to be robust and working hard soon brings out the problems if they are there. If there is any genetic mismatch for a selected breeding it is not done regardless of how much we might like both dogs.

    I totally do not condone the mass production of puppies regardless of if they are clean and well fed. The best breeders go for quality, not quantity. This breeding for quantity seems more likely to occur in the breeding of in demand so called designer dogs where prices are ridiculous and demand seems to be high. These breeders have no restrictions about selling to pet shops.

    I believe a quality breeder is one who understands structure and temperament, has good knowledge of the breeds genetic diseases and screens accordingly. Pays careful attention to the selection of the pairing of breeding dogs. Uses only the best quality dogs for breeding with the goal of producing healthy, well tempered, structurally sound dogs. A good breeder will socialise and nurture the puppies before they are sold to homes not before 8 weeks old. They will carefully choose the people who buy their pups. They will always with in their capability be able to give advice to owners of their puppies and they will take the puppies back if down the track theire is a problem that may see the dogs end up in the pound. You cant possibly do this when you are mass producing puppies and selling them through pet shops.

    These days I am highly selective about where I get my new pups. However I do also take in the occassionaly working dog pup from rescue, but again I carefully look at their temperament and structure and then I insure them for the first couple of years in case a genetic condition pops up.
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 03-20-2015 at 10:24 AM.

  2. #22
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    The trouble with making rules - is currently there are lots of disagreements about what the rules should be...

    And some of the rules are difficult to enforce -

    Ie what density of dog shit in the dog's space is unhealthy - how often should a yard be cleaned up. Some people are fine with once a week but I clean up at least once a day but usually as soon as the crap appears as she doesn't get much unsupervised back yard time.

    Some rules that would help a lot and are pretty easy to measure and enforce...

    All dogs should have microchips. It would be good if the microchip database(s) would have the breeder info (or shelter), and then the current owner. But a history of owners would be helpful.

    A dog or puppy should not be able to be sold, or given away without a microchip. That would add an immediate $30 cost per puppy to the backyard breeders and make it unviable for some of them.

    This is the law in Victoria but I'm not sure they enforce it. Would be nice if governments and councils that make these kinds of laws would allocate resources (funding and people) to check and enforce eg the gumtree ads.

    A puppy should not be rehomed under 8 weeks old without a vet certificate stating why eg death of the mother.

    That's also pretty easy to enforce. Most vets can tell when a puppy is too young to rehome.

    Most rescues and pounds will not rehome a dog without it being desexed first. This has its down sides in terms of bone development on larger dogs and some risk of incontinence in older dogs but it probably makes dog ownership easier for most people. Certainly does for me. But there are some government supported pounds that allow dogs to be rehomed without desexing. And this is probably a bad idea and pretty easy to fix.

    What's not so easy:

    - what is an appropriate environment for a dog to live in?
    Eg is it ok to shut a boxer in a small yard and never walk it? What about a king Charles cavalier spaniel? What about a dog that tries to attack everything (people, dogs, cats, wildlife) when it's out walking?

    - Is it ok to keep a dog permanently chained up?

    - is it ok to keep a working dog in suburbia - I do - am I wrong?

    - is it ok to keep a dog in an apartment

    - barking dogs... what is ok and what isn't and how do you help the owner sort it out?

    - escaping dogs - again - how do you help the owner with that?

    - bad owners that allow their dogs to break the laws we already have like leaving crap in pubic places, and harassing other people, dogs, wildlife, stock.

    I saw what I think of as a bad owner yesterday but nothing would have happened if I'd called the ranger and the owner didn't think they were doing anything wrong. They had a puppy on a stretch lead - the sort that cuts like a wire - the dog wrapped around a human trying to mount another dog.

    I would have been happy if they'd grabbed their dog by the collar, brought it back to them (no scolding) and then shortened up the lead - no greeting unless there is some sign of self control and appropriate dog to dog greeting which does not include trying to hump the unwilling.

    As for breeders -

    - what to do about the deluded - who think
    that every bitch needs to have at least one litter
    or that their family needs to experience the miracle of life (never mind what happens when half the puppies are still born and some of the others get parvo).

    that their undesexed boy and girl dogs won't breed because they're too young (they're 6 months old and over).

    the breeder who thinks they have done everything right and they get a dog jump the 2m fence... and get with their bitch - or the bitch breaks the back door down trying to get to the boy dogs. ie accidental litters happen despite everyone's best efforts and it's no longer ok to drown the puppies. Tho they could get the vet to abort them.

    and then the breeders who think that both dogs are pretty and they just want to sell puppies. Should there be an exception for breeders with only one bitch. Should they all be required to keep records (like everyone is required to do tax returns or register their own babies).

    We don't have any restriction on humans breeding (tho sometimes I wish there was). I think the answers might be similar...

    Ie make it really easy for young women to get birth control. There will be fewer unwanted consequences to heat of the moment bad decisions.

    So with unwanted dogs - really need to make it easy or rewarding to not breed. And harder to have puppies for everyone? Or make it much easier to own and keep dogs in healthy environments generally.

    Eg can't refuse to rent to someone with a dog (or other pets), but easy to evict if the place is not to a set standard of clean (eg density and age of dog poop in the house).

    Make it easy to get good training help. subsidise for people with barking dogs? But this often has to do with the dog not getting a walk... see above...

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by mymatejack View Post
    Breedism LOL
    Yep. Breedism. The idea that a recorded "Pedigree" is what makes a dog better, Rather than actualy studying what you have in front of you, what was done to get it there, its purpose, how it could be improved and if there will be an appreciative enough demand for your "Product" that suitable homes can be found.


    Without that, a pedigree is just a piece of paper that anyone can sign on for. And will, if that idea is promoted. LOL.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by mymatejack View Post
    Those words of yours accurately describe an ethical responsible breeder ... something you will almost NEVER find in the "people" breeding mutts!
    you are not clear here, you say "an ethical responsible breeder " without mentioning specifically purebreds or papered dogs, then you counterpoise "almost NEVER find in the "people" breeding mutts" I only deduce by implication that you are saying that non-mutt ie purebreds breeders are mainly ethical because they breed purebred dogs and mutt breeders are mainly unethical cos they don't????????.

    I may be wrong on what you are saying but your reasoning is invalid, made even more invalid by following this comment;

    "actualy studying what you have in front of you, what was done to get it there, its purpose, how it could be improved "

    I would really like to hear how you link your reply to these questions, I have my answers but I do not want to cloud things. I would prefer to hear your answers.



    how are most purbred dogs seen when displayed by breeders publicly?

    what can you tell about most purebred dogs by what the breeders have in front of them?

    what was done to get it there?

    what is it's purpose (INDEED)

    how can it be improved (FOR WHAT PURPOSE AGAIN?)?
    Last edited by muttboy; 03-21-2015 at 06:07 AM.

  5. #25
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    Pet shops, dog breeders irate at cost of plan to stop puppy farms

    Interesting article. I also found it astounding that dogs generally cost $1200 -$6000 in pet shops. I bet most of them come without any genetic testing. I have never yet paid over $700 for a puppy from a registered breeder with all the genetic testing in place. Same with working dogs from working breeders.

    The other thing I noted is the very high demand for 8 week old puppies for peoples kids. Shame that many of them end up back in shelters once the dogs become unruly teenagers or adults and are less than cute. There seems to be many puppies pumped out and sold and obviously ending up in overflowing pounds.

    Obviously something is very broken.

    Muttboy I understand where you are coming from but sadly the fact is that unless most people are regulated, the breeding of dogs outside a registered system where there are no rules, very rarely results in the apporopriate testing being done.

    Maybe among a handful of knowledgeable people who are breeding dogs for a specific purpose. Many people breed their dogs for ridiculous reasons or simply to cash in on a market which clearly there is for the so called designer dogs judging by the price people are willing to pay.

    Does the breeder you talk about in your initial post have a clear purpose and genetic testing and screening in place and does she take back any of her puppies that find themseves in trouble down the track? Did your dog come with its parents carrier or clear status of the breed specific conditions and do you have the parents hip and elbow scores? If not you may be lucky but you can bet someone out there wont be so lucky if there is a problem that the breeder doesnt know about in her dogs, if they get a pup with a double recessive gene or a dog that is a carrier and breed it to another carrier down the track.
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 03-21-2015 at 12:52 PM.

  6. #26
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    you are not clear here, you say "an ethical responsible breeder " without mentioning specifically purebreds or papered dogs, then you counterpoise "almost NEVER find in the "people" breeding mutts"

    I only deduce by implication that you are saying that non-mutt ie purebreds breeders are mainly ethical because they breed purebred dogs and mutt breeders are mainly unethical cos they don't????????.
    You're right - that logic is invalid and I'm pretty sure it's not what MMJ was saying.

    But I've talked to breeder "designer cross breeds" and when you ask them about hip scores and DNA tests for PRA etc - they don't know what you're talking about. But if you talk to an ANKC pedigree breeder - they do know. They have a code of ethics and a regular journal that is sent out discussing these issues.

    there are some other associations for dog breeders that have a code of ethics - eg the Master Dog Breeders Association - which also addresses some of these points but can you point me at a single website of a cross breeder or mutt breeder - where they put their code of ethics on their website where everyone can read it and they don't make promises about how their cross breed dogs will turn out that they can't keep.

    Eg there's a few websites that promote "hybrid vigor" (a term from plant breeding across species), but then say they can guarantee the temperament and coat from their crosses - because they're multigenerational crosses for example not lab x poodle but puppy of x or puppy of puppy of x ie no pedigree dog for multiple generations which means - no hybrid vigor claim is valid but they might be right about the coat or temperament. And if you ask for copies of the dna tests and hip scores - they cannot provide those.

    So there's a chance you will find an ethical responsible breeder amongst the ANKC mob - but not guaranteed. There are some puppy farmers among them - and it makes all the ANKC breeders look bad but they can't really afford the lawyer fees booting out the puppy farmers.

    There are also some ethical responsible breeders among the working dog lines.

    But I've yet to meet one among the poodle cross pet dog breeders who supply the pet shops and advertise in the classifieds.

  7. #27

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    kala, I did not have to ask my breeder about anything, altho I did.

    I did my own research on the lines to way back, did my own study on the particular pairing and calculated my own probabilities to my own satisfaction. whatever the breeder said was at most mildly interesting.

    and yes the breeder has 30 years of highly specialised breeding and does not advertise or sell dogs to the public, in fact he hides his litters and all pups are sold before the parents have been chosen.

    he takes dogs back mainly because people can not handle them but insist they can until he gives them a go. he trains the returns and re-sells them and makes a double profit
    the dogs are considered ugly as sin by the show crowd but I blow their minds showing them a dog that leaks drive and captures an entire audience of random bystanders.

    most people especially purebred registered dog breeders and their gullible supporters have never seen or can handle real dogs.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by muttboy View Post
    kala, I did not have to ask my breeder about anything, altho I did.

    I did my own research on the lines to way back, did my own study on the particular pairing and calculated my own probabilities to my own satisfaction. whatever the breeder said was at most mildly interesting.

    and yes the breeder has 30 years of highly specialised breeding and does not advertise or sell dogs to the public, in fact he hides his litters and all pups are sold before the parents have been chosen.

    he takes dogs back mainly because people can not handle them but insist they can until he gives them a go. he trains the returns and re-sells them and makes a double profit
    the dogs are considered ugly as sin by the show crowd but I blow their minds showing them a dog that leaks drive and captures an entire audience of random bystanders.

    most people especially purebred registered dog breeders and their gullible supporters have never seen or can handle real dogs.
    Yes there are breeders who breed in this way particularly in the working world. They have very good knowledge of the lines and dogs are well proven. I for one do not care what my working dogs look like as long as they are well structured and have the type of working traits I am looking for and are being bred by people who really know what they are doing. These dogs too are often spoken for well in advance.

    However this is unfortunately not the the case for a lot of people breeding dogs and although showbred dogs are of no interest to me personally, for the general public there are worse options.

    Most people do not need or want high drive workingbred dogs.

    For one thing a lot of high drive working dogs find themselves in rescue. I know this because I currently have a couple that are fine working dogs for me but fell into the wrong hands and became virtually uncontrollable by their first owners, but have all the things that I look for in my dogs.

    The pedigree system produces dogs that are generally suited for the general public with the added advantage of usually if the breeder is ethical having health checks in place.

    This may not always be required when breeding high quality working dogs just because of the way in which they bred where dogs are proven workers before they are bred, although some working breeders are using screening tests more.

    I think what this thread is cautioning against is the purchase of high price puppies because they are so called designer crosses and have in many cases just been bred as money spinning machines.

    I do know quite a few breeders of pedigree dogs just because I compete in dog sports and there are some very ethical ones out there who produce sound, healthy well socialised pups at a lower cost than a designer dog from dubious origins. Some of these dogs have very nice drives for sport and are among some of the top dogs handled by very good dog trainers. A lot of the top trainers do tend to seek out workingbred dogs but there are some very good showbreds competing as well.

    For the average punter they just want a nice healthy family dog. A friend of mine has had to euthaniase 2 dogs brought through pet shops from chronic hip dysplasia and temperament issues. I think if you can find an ethical breeder through the pedigree system one is less likely to have these issues. Their lines are well documented and the screening certificates are availble.
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 03-21-2015 at 07:04 PM.

  9. #29
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    I did my own research on the lines to way back, did my own study on the particular pairing
    Good - but this can only be done if breeders keep accurate records of their breeding lines and don't fib when convenient and also keep records on long term performance and health (or do dna testing and hip scores or all that) and let you see all that.

    I blow their minds showing them a dog that leaks drive and captures an entire audience of random bystanders.
    I can do that with my mutt too. Not sure about the leaks drive bit - I've been told she doesn't have any but I'm not entirely sure I believe that. But I don't consider myself a good dog trainer yet. Not even close - she's still way better at training me.

    It's good to know there are still lots of people out there breeding for performance - but what this thread was really about was people cross breeding beagles... deliberately or not. I don't think they're in the same class as the person who bred your mutt - muttboy.

  10. #30

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    I am guilty of leading the thread off topic, my apologies to the OP.

    my take on it is simply this;

    an ethical breeder knows their lines better than anybody else.

    an ethical buyer should know what the breeder is thinking in a particular pairing.


    they both take a certain level of IQ, a lot of work, a bit of luck and much hard work from both breeder and buyer...all of which are too often sadly lacking.

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