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Thread: Won't get this Breed again.

  1. #21
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    From reading the article it would appear that a cancer like hemangiosarcoma could indeed have a heritable component.

    Research work around the impact of mapping the risk alleles in high risk breeds with a view to identifying the high risk alleles and then trying to eliminate them from the population would be great.

    This information could prove to be invaluable in an ethical breeding program. I would imagine at the moment the way to deal with this is to have very good records or your breeding lines and progeny and have this disease as a specific criteria in breeding goals, not easy. To be able to asses the genetics of a dog before it is bred would be potentially invaluable.

    Really it at the moment it comes down to true ethical breeding, which is breeding for the healthiest and soundest dogs using all the information that is currently available. Keeping really good records about the offspring and knowing all there is to know about your chosen breed. The show ring can sometimes derail this when certain fads come into being, it is up to ethical breeders to resist this pressure and try and makes changes to prevent this happening. Backyard breeders who just throw 2 dogs together with a view to making money are despicable as are non ethical breeders in general.

  2. #22
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    Hemangiosarcoma has genetic links.

    Disorders by Breed - German shepherd dog - LIDA Dogs - Faculty of Veterinary Science - The University of Sydney

    Bad breeding is not limited to the show ring people. Anyone who breeds but doesn't check the health history of the parents, grand parents and etc can contribute to passing on unhealthy genes.

    Disorder - Hemangiosarcoma - LIDA Dogs - Faculty of Veterinary Science - The University of Sydney

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    Hemangiosarcoma has genetic links.

    Disorders by Breed - German shepherd dog - LIDA Dogs - Faculty of Veterinary Science - The University of Sydney

    Bad breeding is not limited to the show ring people. Anyone who breeds but doesn't check the health history of the parents, grand parents and etc can contribute to passing on unhealthy genes.

    Disorder - Hemangiosarcoma - LIDA Dogs - Faculty of Veterinary Science - The University of Sydney
    Hi Hyacinth,

    The links you have posted I've seen many times before...especially after Tara died of this very nasty aggressive cancer. The first link says "thought to have genetic origins because their frequency is higher than expected in certain breeds" but no one knows for sure and there are no tests for it and it's always fatal. When we see all the other health issues listed in this link that the GSD could have...you know why I'll never get another one.

    There are no symptoms till it's too late...the second link recommends surgery...I was told the same thing... that would have given her possibly a few more months but I couldn't put her through that. Not all GSDs will get this cancer...but how do you know your GSD won't...that's the problem and since GSDs are the most affected...the risk IMO is just too high for me.

    Second link doesn't mention Rotties...glad they don't get this cancer but you never know. We lost our beautiful Rottie Opal last year to a different cancer but she was 10 yrs old.
    Chloe & Zorro
    Rottweilers and German Shepherds are Family

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogman View Post
    Hi Hyacinth,

    The links you have posted I've seen many times before...especially after Tara died of this very nasty aggressive cancer. The first link says "thought to have genetic origins because their frequency is higher than expected in certain breeds" but no one knows for sure and there are no tests for it and it's always fatal. When we see all the other health issues listed in this link that the GSD could have...you know why I'll never get another one.

    There are no symptoms till it's too late...the second link recommends surgery...I was told the same thing... that would have given her possibly a few more months but I couldn't put her through that. Not all GSDs will get this cancer...but how do you know your GSD won't...that's the problem and since GSDs are the most affected...the risk IMO is just too high for me.

    Second link doesn't mention Rotties...glad they don't get this cancer but you never know. We lost our beautiful Rottie Opal last year to a different cancer but she was 10 yrs old.
    This is where the research they mention in one of the links you posted about mapping the DNA of the high risk breeds and identifying the high risk alleles that are associated with Hemangiosarcoma with a view to eliminating them from the population would be a very powerful tool in breeding programs in selecting for dogs with a lower risk profile.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalacreek View Post
    This is where the research they mention in one of the links you posted about mapping the DNA of the high risk breeds and identifying the high risk alleles that are associated with Hemangiosarcoma with a view to eliminating them from the population would be a very powerful tool in breeding programs in selecting for dogs with a lower risk profile.
    The links I posted were an example of what this cancer was...as not many people have ever heard of it...myself included until I lost my girl to it.
    Breeders won't tell you about it as it's bad for business. I also don't believe everything we read on the internet either...it's always about what their going to do...but the fact remains GSDs have had these problems for many years and will have for many years to come.

    Another example is the Dobermann...25 years ago I got my first Dobe and at the age of 4 yrs she got Wobbler Syndrome a common Hereditary disease in Dobermanns and others which are worse...25 years later Dobermanns still have these same common Hereditary diseases so what has changed...nothing only the price of the pups...Research yeah right.
    Chloe & Zorro
    Rottweilers and German Shepherds are Family

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogman View Post
    The links I posted were an example of what this cancer was...as not many people have ever heard of it...myself included until I lost my girl to it.
    Breeders won't tell you about it as it's bad for business. I also don't believe everything we read on the internet either...it's always about what their going to do...but the fact remains GSDs have had these problems for many years and will have for many years to come.

    Another example is the Dobermann...25 years ago I got my first Dobe and at the age of 4 yrs she got Wobbler Syndrome a common Hereditary disease in Dobermanns and others which are worse...25 years later Dobermanns still have these same common Hereditary diseases so what has changed...nothing only the price of the pups...Research yeah right.
    I understand what you are saying and why you posted your links. I also have seen statistics that show the longevity of certain breeds have declined over time, which is never a good thing.

    However on reading through one of your links

    Canine Hemangiosarcoma - The Road from Despair to Hope

    Jaime F. Modiano, VMD, PhD, Michelle G. Ritt, DVM, DACVIM, Matthew Breen, PhD, CBiol, MIBiol, and Tessa Breen, BSc (Hons), Dip GD, CMM

    I took heart in some of the current research that is being undertaken - the following is an excerpt from the paper.

    To date, we have taken several approaches to identify how heritable factors influence hemangiosarcoma risk. One approach, developed largely in collaboration with Dr. Elaine Ostrander at the National Human Genome Research Institute of the National Institutes of Health and Dr. Kerstin Lindblad-Toh at the Broad Institute of MIT and Harvard, seeks to map risk alleles in Portuguese Water Dogs, Golden Retrievers, and German Shepherds using resources made available by the recent completion of the Canine Genome Project. We continue to collect samples for these projects, and we would be extremely grateful to owners who wished to participate by contributing blood and pedigree information from healthy (aged) dogs and from affected dogs. Information for participation is available at Modiano Lab - Study Info.

    The other test they talk of in the same paper is one to identify an indicator protein that will help identify hermangiosarcoma in its early stages when it is still treatable. So a simple blood test could be used.

    Another paper I read talked about the importance of knowing the lineage, keeping records and following up your breeding programs offspring when dealing with these diseases that likely in some breeds to have a strong heritable component. I suspect that in the majority of breeding programs this does not happen because it takes a lot of effort and hence the increase in the population and the decrease in longevity.

    If a test can be developed either to be able to help cull the high risk genes from the population or an early detection test then that will help. Untill then I guess it is imperative to find a breeder who has worked hard to pay attention to these risk factors.
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 12-01-2014 at 08:07 PM.

  7. #27

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    I understand your heartache in the matter. It would be incredibly discouraging to have 3 family members lost to such devastating diseases. This is why I'm so passionate about properly breeding these animals. Just know that not all hope is lost. I don't personally breeding btw.. So I'm not trying to sell you one of mine :P

  8. #28

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    Personaly, I believe its gone too far to fix the more seriously affected breeds of multiple hereditary problems through eliminatrion alone.

    I believe the concentrated gene pools are largely to blame and that concentrating them further could only cause other hereditary problems to appear. The body loses its "repertoir" of defence mechanisms while genes are constantly being elliminated.

    If the K.Cs wish to concentrate on predictability of pedigrees thru closed lines, thats their choice. But it should be remebered you can't "improve" on predictability- only make it more predictable by elliminating variables that also allow for adaptablity.

    Refusing to allow their members to cross breed has effectively closed the door to alternative research, observation and experimentation. It disallows true comparisons or observation of where the breeds are heading or problems within. A pedigree will only ever effectively be compared to another pedigree. Progress or best practice can't be measured if any comparison is elliminated from the equation. By the time 1 responsible breeder sees the deterioration in their breed over their lifetime, a whole new generation of breeders are accepting the latest batch of dogs as a standard.

    Predictabilty is fine. Nothing wrong with that, but for the species itself to survive, it needs adaptability as well. Its what made dogs so iminently suitable for their human partneship in the 1st place- their ability to adapt and fit in to so many varied human environments, AND proving their usefullness in all those varied environments.

    Nothing wrong with showing either, so long as the show ring is not allowed to become the only benchmark of good breeding- a show ring win contributes nothing towards a purpose for dogs into the future. Seems to me its purpose thats so sadly missing and with out that its only natural that dogs will keep losing their value to society as a whole.
    Last edited by Strange fruit; 12-02-2014 at 09:29 AM.

  9. #29
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    I think with some of these breeds a combination approach is probably needed. So good genetic knowledge of where problems are known to exist and the ability to strategically crossbreed where required.

    In the working dog world cross breeding can certainly be used strategically while still maintaining recognisable breeds.

  10. #30

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    Yes. But ability to stragegicaly cross breed left up individuals, not committees. So long as those dogs aren't included in a breed based registry.

    Only then is it any concern of the registries. There needs to be room for individual priorities of purpose.

    A committee can't effectively govern goals and purpose. Certainly not with any flexability or adaptability of their own.
    Last edited by Strange fruit; 12-02-2014 at 08:19 PM.

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