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Thread: I officially now support BSL

  1. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by 99bottles View Post
    I agree that dogs will react to stimulus but the examples you gave were ones where I would consider an aggressive responsive to be completely unacceptable...
    Ah yes, but would that person have been issued with a licence? What evidence could there have been to suggest that person was an irresponsible owner?

    "Large dog ownership licensing" is a great idea and it will definitely be an improvement over the current system.

    - However -

    what would the criteria be to determine whether or not someone is allowed to own a dog and how will you ensure after having obtained a license the licencee continues to be a responsible dog owner? eg. a dog left on its own in the backyard without any interaction with the outside world or socialization ceases to be a 'safe' dog. Even though the owner has demonstrated that he understands what is required of him and has a thorough knowledge of how to raise a dog in a safe way (and has therefore obtained a license) he simply does not go to the effort.

    ie. more effort is required on part of the dog owner than knowledge alone and licencing fails to address that.

    the only way to counter this is to require some kind of monthly/yearly check. who/what/how something like this is/can be funded I have no idea. I suppose we could always get rid of medicare because our dogs are far more important than sick people ;p Or something. I really don't know about this kind of thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    They don't want any more nanny state stuff... We yell abuse at the irresponsible people and generally make it no fun for them to be there - and they don't come back.
    That's what we're doing though isn't it (nanny state)? And with the yelling abuse thing - maybe that is the best way? (or maybe not)

    While we're on the subject of doing things the old fashioned way I want to offer a simpler and much cheaper solution - why not just avoid people/dogs you think are irresponsible/dangerous?

    - And one more thing and that is I've gone through my older posts and to my embarrassment I've realised I've worded my question wrong (why do you feel the need to differentiate between different types of dogs and not different types of dog owners?) - it should read - "why does there need to be a distinction between owning different sorts of dogs?" (this question is redundant now)

    such a ridiculous mistake, sorry
    Last edited by goggles; 04-19-2014 at 07:07 AM.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by goggles View Post
    - it should read - "why does there need to be a distinction between owning different sorts of dogs?" (this question is redundant now)

    While I dont agree with BSL, I do believe that indeed different breeds have different characteristics and origins and people need to understand this when they take on dogs. Good training is essential for all dogs but there are specific breed charateristics that need to be taken into account when both training and breeding. Ignore this at your peril. A working bred kelpie is a very different dog to a Westie for example. People often buy without any clue or because of a fashion or a film. There are certain breeds I wouldnt touch with a barge pole because I know they wouldnt suit my temperament or lifestyle. I shudder when I saw people come through our dog club with dogs that were way too much dog for them. I remember one lass with a working bred kelpie puppy that was incredibly full on with major drive and intelligence. Her reaction was too march her off to be speyed, which she believed was the answer to calming her down and becoming the lap dog she wanted. Yeah right! I love the drive and intelligence of these types of dogs but I make a lot of adjustments in my life to give them the exercise and stimulation that I believe they need. When I dog sit my mums SWF there is nowhere near the same amount of work involved.

  3. #83

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    This whole size discussion is just plain stupid. My dog is around 18 - 19kgs, he will easily take down a dog twice his size. A Jack Russel(a very much underestimated breed) will easily take down a dog 2 - 3 times its size. Forget your bias against big dogs and start thinking about how we might fix the problem in a general sense.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by mymatejack View Post
    This whole size discussion is just plain stupid. My dog is around 18 - 19kgs, he will easily take down a dog twice his size. A Jack Russel(a very much underestimated breed) will easily take down a dog 2 - 3 times its size. Forget your bias against big dogs and start thinking about how we might fix the problem in a general sense.
    My thoughts are not so much around size but around understanding the characteristics of different breeds. A Jack Russell is not really a dog for someone who wants a relaxed lap dog, like the working kelpie. Both are likely to be dogs that need a lot of maintenence. A great Dane probably has different requirements to a working bred Malinois etc.

    There are a couple of paths one can take. One is stricter licencing and I think that the discussion highlights that this would be quite difficult and BSL has been the easy way out and is not good.

    The other is a concerted effort on education and support and encouragement for dog training and making the right choice of dog and breeder. However I suspect the government has other priorities as to where it is spending our money.
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 04-18-2014 at 08:53 AM.

  5. #85
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    Here's an Idea...let's ban all Irresponsible owners from owning a dog of any size or breed and remove BSL...problem solved.

    If it were only that simple...reminds me of disqualified drivers who walk out of court get in their car and drive off It's always been the owner that's the problem...not the breed. I've seen people at all breeds training who can't control small dogs...so it's not the dog.

    Chloe has been bitten by a couple of small dogs at all breeds and an instructors GSD bitch (Female) too...I said to the instructor is your dog alright while inching Chloe closer and was told yes...then all of a sudden this GSD bitch lunged and bit Chloe...the joys of all breeds training.

    People buy certain breeds for the wrong reasons...so how can we stop this...I don't know. Look at the GSD which is a popular breed (unfortunately) people think they're guard dogs...don't need training just chuck em out in the backyard they'll be right. When they realize these dogs are nothing like that...it's off to the pound because the dog is uncontrollable and when one of these poor dogs bites someone... they blame the breed.

    Next thing you know the Media and general public who wouldn't know one end of a GSD from the other are calling to ban this dangerous breed...what a bloody joke. Everyone can buy a GSD even from registered breeders but they're not for everyone...as they require a lot of hard work that most people don't want to do. So how the hell is forcing owners who are responsible to get a licence simply because they love large breeds going to stop this...you tell me.
    Chloe & Zorro
    Rottweilers and German Shepherds are Family

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogman View Post
    People buy certain breeds for the wrong reasons...so how can we stop this...I don't know. Look at the GSD which is a popular breed (unfortunately) people think they're guard dogs...don't need training just chuck em out in the backyard they'll be right. When they realize these dogs are nothing like that...it's off to the pound because the dog is uncontrollable and when one of these poor dogs bites someone... they blame the breed.

    Next thing you know the Media and general public who wouldn't know one end of a GSD from the other are calling to ban this dangerous breed...what a bloody joke. Everyone can buy a GSD even from registered breeders but they're not for everyone...as they require a lot of hard work that most people don't want to do. So how the hell is forcing owners who are responsible to get a licence simply because they love large breeds going to stop this...you tell me.
    This is why education is so important. Dogs are an important part of our society, humans and dogs have evolved together. This is why I believe that we need to think about better education and awareness and training at approved establishments.

    Like with anything human it is never simple, there will always be people who will try and abuse any system so I havent thought much about how it might work.

    Just seems to me that people buy innappropriate breeds based on a complete lack of understanding of what is required. I see the same with my breed the cattle dog. I know this breed and I know how to end up with a well balanced well trained dog which all mine are. I also know what can happen in ignorant hands, both with breeding and training. Same with GSDs etc. It pisses me off big time.

  7. #87

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    Kalacreek I think that's a good idea, I want people to be more informed before they buy the dog, especially if the breed they plan on buying is something like a GSD. The good, responsible owners are already aware, they're already better educated and spending more time training their dogs. The reason I wanted licensing rather than just introducing more training facilities is because I wanted more in the way of consequences for owners who do the wrong thing.

    My first dog was a Jack Russel cross, I certainly know what they think they're capable of. I was very young when we got him (like 5) and my parents weren't at all involved in the training or exercise of him. One day, he ran straight up to a Cattle dog who was on a lead (I was maybe 8? Probably shouldn't have been walking him alone...) and tried to attack the dog. Well despite being bigger than the mini foxie size we were told he would grow to, the Cattle dog quickly grabbed him by the neck and shook him. He somehow was uninjured and we got him home - and Henry had never managed to lay a paw on the other dog. I was as useless as owners come and yet I don't think anyone would disagree that thankfully, it's only now, 20 years later, that I went out and got the Dobe x Rottie because had I been the owner of the larger dog rather than the smaller one, that could have gone extremely differently.

    18-19kg is still a decently powerful dog, which is why I would recommend licensing at the very least for anything over 15kg. Smaller than that I'm not as concerned because most people could over power it - even if the dog is aggressive but I wouldn't disagree with a licensing scheme for those smaller dogs as well if everyone wanted it.

    It's not simple, but you have a few people get caught, get fined and people will start to realise. Having something that is immediately visible to everyone (such as a bright collar as opposed to a microchip for example) means that policing would be easier and I would happily report anyone I found not abiding by the licensing laws. Not because I want to make their lives difficult but because I want to change society's perception of dogs. Unfortunately, when other people create dangerous situations with their dogs, it reflects badly on all dog owners and we will all pay the price.

    One thing that I hate most that has happened to me a couple of times now, Sammy and I run into a couple with a poorly behaved small dog. In one instance both dogs were on lead but the small dog was lunging, barking and trying to engage Sammy. I got Sammy in a sit stay so they could pass on the sidewalk. They didn't even pull their dog in so it has the full length of the lead to work with but I held my tongue. Husband turns to the wife and says, "see look at that, told you we should have got a big dog." I've had people ask me for puppies from Sammy because they think that he came like this, like if they get a puppy they will have Sammy, no training required. I mean even if I gave them Sammy they wouldn't be able to get him to do anything but they don't understand that. I try and joke about it and tell them just how much work is involved. Maybe some listen, but I know others don't. One of my old neighbours went out and got a Dobermann. I saw them together lots when the dog was a puppy, I watched it bite him when he tried to take a chicken bone out of its mouth that it found on the street. His hand was bleeding and he's hugging the dog, saying, oh I shouldn't have done that, he's just such a good guard dog. He found me a few months later sitting outside with Sammy at a fish and chips place and he told me, he couldn't walk his dog down the street anymore, it was too big and too aggressive. He certainly couldn't sit outside at a café and have the dog lie down and wait for him. This was like 2 years ago, so who knows where that poor dog is now?

    Essentially, I want to force anyone who wants to own anything other than a toy or small breed to undergo mandatory education before they're allowed to bring home a dog. That way, people can see some examples of what is possible with their dogs (both good and bad), how to choose a puppy, understand the history of their breed (and understand why that person wants that breed), how to socialise, training clubs to join etc. And perhaps if you want to own a breed that has ever been used in wars, by the police, for fighting etc, you get a higher level of license. Perhaps similar to the system they have in place for snakes, where to own venomous varieties you need a higher level of license than what you do just to own a carpet python.

  8. #88
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    18-19kg is still a decently powerful dog, which is why I would recommend licensing at the very least for anything over 15kg. Smaller than that I'm not as concerned because most people could over power it - even if the dog is aggressive but I wouldn't disagree with a licensing scheme for those smaller dogs as well if everyone wanted it.
    Dog under your quota ripped a ladies shoulder in half. Lunged out and the force tore the BONE not just ligaments. She has screws holding it together and permanent limitation in movement now. She wasn't a small lady either.

    Pomeranian has killed a baby before Baby Girl Killed by Family Dog - Los Angeles Times
    A jack russell x killed a baby in one bite Jack Russell cross bites one week old child in 'jealousy' attack | Mail Online
    Sheep dogs and jack russels - both medium to small dogs Pensioner mauled by pack of savage sheep dogs and Jack Russells | The Sun |News
    JRTs listed in most attacks No Cookies | thetelegraph.com.au
    Labrador attacks a pit bull and its owners Labrador retriever put down after attacking pit bull and multiple people - National Dogs | Examiner.com
    Labrador puts causes 40 stitch wound to childs face Boy, 3, left with horrific facial injuries as Labrador savages him at Poole Harbour | Mail Online
    Mauled by a border collie - smaller child would probably be dead to be honest Cameron Whithers, 8, 'lucky to be alive' after Border Collie mauls his head | Mail Online


    Mandatory licensing will do nothing but revenue raise. Even now wildlife licenses to be honest mean nothing. Pay your fee, own as many and whatever you want to be honest if you're ready for it or not. In all my years of licenses no one every checked if my animals were OK, looked after, if I had too many etc. Just give us a fee.

    You cannot discriminate. As for mandatory education, the crap that is being fed to people NOW is half the problems. Look at idiotic ideals like Ian Dunbar where mouthing people to some degree is acceptable... Really? You like dog teeth on your skin? You think a DOG can really decide what is an acceptable bite force and forever exist in that lovely grey area you created for it it's whole life with no incident? Every dog I have owned or trained, protection or otherwise, has learned - you lay teeth on me you won't like the consequences. They only ever try it once. I've been training protection and aggressive dogs for a decade I don't have scars on my arms and neither do any of my clients. Unbalanced claptrap BS is causing problems. Licensing will do absolutely nothing and by the way you already pay it - it's called council registration. The point is to see what breeds are being owned out there and to keep an eye on owners as well to educate. Hands up how many people have seen your local council ranger do something positive and productive like that? Few to none I imagine. Fees on fees on fees when we need to bring back good old fashioned dog schools, let the professionals deal with the guarding breeds in the special classes like there used to be and people enjoyed the process, not bought a dog as an ornament.
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  9. #89
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    Look at idiotic ideals like Ian Dunbar where mouthing people to some degree is acceptable... Really?
    I'm just wondering - who gets bit more often? Ian Dunbar or Cesar Milan?

    And why? Ian's not likely to provoke a dog into fight mode because it thinks that's its only option.

    There are some dogs I would not choose to allow to put teeth on me, but I also like to make it no fun at all and just yelping - didn't work for me either. But I don't beat a dog for doing it either - because some dogs will defend themselves and that's worse than one that just mistakes a bit of you for the tug toy.

    Never play tug in the dusk/dark.

    I think there is a balance but I do better with the more reward based systems. I tried the punishment based one and got it all wrong. And my dog thinks she's being punished if she doesn't get the treat...

  10. #90
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    Ian's not likely to provoke a dog into fight mode because it thinks that's its only option.
    And why is there only supposedly two trains of thought - positive or HORRIFIC MUTILATORY TORTURE PRACTICES. Why to you and many others is there things like Dunbar, or beating a dog? Where do I mention beating a dog at all as the alternative? The brainwashing tirades of positive trainers have made people think like this, it's their way or cruelty supposedly. Mmmhmm. Dog bite incidences are actually on a rise. Out of control dogs are on the rise. People giving up dogs for basic behaviors and dogs being killed for BASIC behaviors that are fixable or preventable if things were done properly in the first place are on the rise. I saw one day a PUPPY put to sleep - the darn thing was 6 months old and because no one taught it manners in a way IT needed, it ran at the toddler and gave it a nip on the face. Just a wiggle worm fluffy puppy with no malice. That to you is acceptable, treats don't work so bye bye time?

    Is tschting a dog and egging a fight intelligent? Heck no. Cesar fights the dog until he wins and he accepts collateral damage, it's actually an old school way of dealing with some dogs but you need to know what you're doing. I deal with dogs that have bitten humans before. I don't need to beat them into submission to make them trustworthy but punishment can be involved in some dogs. Others there is little to no punishment involved, it depends on the dog. But you tie the hands of people like me and others who want a wide array of tools and methods to use those dogs that could make a recovery don't - so they die.

    Your experience is limited to a specific dog. I'm talking overall the availability of the other sides should not be berated and badmouthed so people with these big, powerful, pushy dogs have somewhere to go without feeling like lepers. There is nothing wrong with owning a big, powerful breed. When there WAS more places like sportdog clubs etc all these meat heads were also pulled into line through peer pressure. It was more a competition who had the better trained dog then who poked it the most with a stick or who left it chained and ignored the longest. There's nothing to achieve anymore when even breed clubs reject sports designed for their own breeds?! I have at the moment a mass migration from a breed club to my own. Their 'training' has created the most unstable dogs I have ever seen. Showcase? The only showcase I see is how to create wound up, untrained dogs that will be untrustworthy enough to bite. And this is more acceptable. Mmmhmm.

    BSL won't fix a thing before Australia pulls it's head out of it's butt about the real needs and nature of the canine. We're the laughing stock of the world.
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