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Thread: I officially now support BSL

  1. #101
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
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    I have a few dogs that have come from a breed club that is like that. The dogs are actually traumatised.
    The GSD club that trains at KCC park is shameful to watch. The class I could see was extremely traumatised.

    I like the video of the dog club secretary... I notice no check collar, and no correction even when the drop seemed a bit slow. And the dog seemed to find getting the next job/cue rewarding - like a sheep dog being rewarded by being asked to work more sheep.

    Frosty can do most of those moves but I'm wondering how many she'd do if the treat bowl was over there and not on me. Some I think. must do my own video.

    With her - All I have to do to let her know that she is not doing what I want is withhold the treat/reward/praise. And then we have to deal with the frustration of that. What I haven't done is train enough persistence and perserverance for both of us - so she knows to keep trying different things and I know to be clearer with my signals for what I want. But we have a lot of fun with the heelwork.

    It's hard to know where the balance is between telling a club chief instructor with obedience titled dogs that they are abusing their dog, vs limiting the tools a good dog trainer can use. There are even some professional trainers that I feel abuse dogs - based on the results eg happy dog in, traumatised miserable dog out. How do you set up (enforceable) rules that stop the bad trainers but allow the good trainers to get on with it.

    How do you explain where the line is between abuse (eg my club instructors) and balance. I'd really like them to understand why I find their conduct so upsetting and explain that it's not working. But even our members who use the reward based methods - and beat the bad trainers routinely in competition are not getting the message through.

  2. #102
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
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    Geelong, Vic
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    Frosty can do most of those moves but I'm wondering how many she'd do if the treat bowl was over there and not on me. Some I think. must do my own video.
    It's because the treat is the whole reward. This is the problem with PP trainers pushing more and more rewards, no one is actually making the animal see the reward is an understandable inbetween given FROM the handler as part of their reward value, it is the reward. BIG difference and why the respect from the dogs vanishes with the treats. Look/watch on command too, out the window it's BS. Everything you give the dog should stare you in the face NOT your hand. As I tell people, treats can't talk to your dog so why are they staring at your hand. It's why PP training fails under stress and high distraction a lot of the time. The dog is essentially alone - it learns to grab a treat or have a treat shoved in it's mouth when the owner kind of thinks its good but there's no true learning of respect from it. The biggest test is hold your arm out fully at face height with food in it. What does your dog do - 90% flick between face and treat or just stare at the treat drooling. That's not training.

    It's hard to know where the balance is between telling a club chief instructor with obedience titled dogs that they are abusing their dog, vs limiting the tools a good dog trainer can use. There are even some professional trainers that I feel abuse dogs - based on the results eg happy dog in, traumatised miserable dog out. How do you set up (enforceable) rules that stop the bad trainers but allow the good trainers to get on with it.
    Idiots will always be idiots and there are always people who have such blinkers on they can't see past their own nose. But you talk with your feet. If you're NOT happy you move on which has happened ... people have left and come to me because one, then two, then more see results in one lesson. You can ban all you want until there's nothing but a flat collar and leash but they can still act like idiots and put the dog into shutdown or a shivering mess with their actions. The problem is that is not considered cruelty legally. I personally find it cruel to push a dog into a shivering, eye rolling, avoidance ridden mess but the law doesn't. But the law ties my hands to use prong and e collars on those dogs that would benefit from them immensely and learn so much faster with them on. And still have wagging tails in the process - you see your punishment done properly actually increases your own value and the value of the reward. Eg, a dog today that lunges out normally. Full lead, it shot out and hit the correction chain while I said nothing. It shot back to me, I showed it a LOVELY big piece of hotdog and gave it that big piece for focus. Nothing flash just come here and look for a second, ooooooh GOOD DOG YAY YUMMY!!! Next time the dog weighed it up - do I shoot out or do I get hotdog. Dog chose focus to get hotdog. That's balance and respect without fear. Now I could have yanked that dog, smacked it and screamed LEAVE but how much focus do you think I would actually get? That dog would rather choke itself to death on a collar then come over to me after dealing with that....

    The problem is too I consider out title system extremely poor quality. I have seen titled dogs that will go grab another dog - errr it's called companion? I know there is also a high level obedience dog that is owned by a clients father that has to be walked in a muzzle or she will have you .. obedience really is not a reflection on overall behavior like it used to be. Now it's trick training through set parameters but do not reflect real life obedience. I can tell you one just came over ... beautiful obedience, another dog starts running around she screams and jumps like a kangaroo on fire and nothing sways her.

    Its what I mean. We've lost sight of it all. Behavior and obedience were always intertwined, now they're poles apart. Obedience helps you control behavior, and solid core behavior helps you excel faster and better at obedience.
    http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c11/Mali_nut/K9LOGO.jpg

  3. #103
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
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    Western Sydney
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    Just thinking...what about the owners of large breed dogs who abuse...bash and starve... then dump these poor dogs in the pound...will they need a licence too ?

    Was at our local pound the other day and most large dogs were just skin and bone...had sores and fly bitten ears the dogs are never the problem.
    Chloe & Zorro
    Rottweilers and German Shepherds are Family

  4. #104
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
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    Adelaide
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    ...what about the owners of large breed dogs who abuse...bash and starve... then dump these poor dogs in the pound
    I think they should have a licence, that can be revoked when they do this. And then if they get another dog... it can be removed without having to go through all the burden of proof again. The person has already demonstrated they can't look after a dog properly - so the dog gets removed as fast as they can get more. And ideally then you start looking at the suppliers of dogs - making sure they see a licence to own before they hand over a dog. So if the person doesn't have a licence... they don't get another dog.

    Nekhbet - I like your last post. A good balance of methods and attitude.

    for me - I'm still learning to get it right but I get the best results from evil hound if I make sure she only gets a reward if she performs "average or better" and once a task / trick is learned - the harder I make her work for the treat/reward - the better she gets and the more enthusiastic she gets.

    Helps if I haven't been over feeding her too.

    In agility training - once the dogs are at "trialing level", we're always looking to increase the distraction levels. So many of them are "movement sensitive" border collies who will chase anything that moves so instead of making sure nothing is moving on the field - we get everything moving by way of distraction - starting with a little bit and then more and more going on at once. And there's always really excited barking dogs. They'd be sent home if it was obedience. Obedience are all for no distractions while the dogs do the sit stays - so the ones that aren't agility trained - are in trouble when a magpie lands on the grass in front of them or a possum runs through the ring. Which happens... especially if everyone is trying to be quiet and still.
    Last edited by Hyacinth; 05-02-2014 at 04:29 PM.

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