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Thread: I officially now support BSL

  1. #91

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    Agree. Its direction we need, not restriction. That way only leads to more till there is no one left.
    Last edited by Strange fruit; 04-23-2014 at 08:26 PM.

  2. #92
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
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    Adelaide
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    Every dog I have owned or trained, protection or otherwise, has learned - you lay teeth on me you won't like the consequences. They only ever try it once.
    HORRIFIC MUTILATORY TORTURE PRACTICES. Why to you and many others is there things like Dunbar, or beating a dog? Where do I mention beating a dog at all as the alternative?
    My mistake. What do you do that will stop a dog from ever touching you with its mouth again?

    So what I see - at a dog club that supposedly is against torture or harsh corrections - is lots of screaming and yelling and scolding and abuse of dogs, and lots of dogs at the end of the choke chain - continuously - there is no pop pop for some dog and handler "teams". I've seen dogs yanked around and shaken by their choke chain collars and scolded for not doing a recall properly. And that was encouraged by a former chief instructor. "the dog knows what it is supposed to do so you can punish it". And I was kind of gleeful when that same instructor got a new puppy who seemed to be very slow at learning to come when called. Can't think why.

    Nobody is getting out the metal pipe and beating their dog to a pulp, or putting shock collars on (where we can see them). But they aren't letting their dogs know when they're doing the right thing either.

    There is a balance. I agree. But I think that if you resort to yelling at your dog and yanking on the collar - the amount of punishment required to keep them behaving needs to be constantly escalated if it's not being balanced by a hell of a lot of good stuff from the dog's point of view.

    We get the same thing with humans on the hockey field - Ric Charlesworth kept stats. 250 positive comments vs three or four "ARRGGGHHH"s were perceived as him being negative on the whole game and all the players.

  3. #93
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Rural Western Australia
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    2,636

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    I dont agree with more licensing restrictions but I do think that there is a need for sensible dog training. Stuffing treats down a dogs throat or yanking, cranking and yelling are to me signs of a lack of understanding.

    I dont know why the sport dog clubs for the powerful breeds are not common in Australia. I would think that they would be a good thing to help people learn more about handling them as well as having fun. I love working my sheepdogs for what they are bred for and I have met some of the most experienced old sheepdog trainers and stockmen in Australia who are always willing to impart their knowledge.

  4. #94

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    OP – you mentioned something about incentives !

    Did you know about these incentives that are from your own (supposed) local council area ?

    Registering your pets for life:

    Registration - City of Sydney

    Free dog training:

    Education and training - City of Sydney

    Or is this not what you were thinking about when you are talking about a license and incentives ?

  5. #95
    Join Date
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    Adelaide
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    I dont know why the sport dog clubs for the powerful breeds are not common in Australia.
    They are sort of outlawed in some states because you're not allowed to train a dog to attack a human (or dummy arm thingy). Tho this doesn't explain the same states having guard dog training centres which do exactly that but in a less controlled (for competition format) way.

    My friend took her Border Collie to the Adelaide Sport Dog club last night. She just likes the obedience component. And her dog is pretty sharp on the heelwork stuff. And it's probably a more fun format than regular obedience clubs.

  6. #96

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    Well that's all I want. It's just I want to make the training and education mandatory and I saw licensing as a potential way of achieving that. I don't think you should be allowed to own a dog if you don't know the first thing about it. It's cruel for the dog and more importantly, if you happen to choose a large, powerful breed, it's dangerous for society. I think that putting others at risk because you want to own a large powerful dog is unacceptable, I really do. Everyone seems to agree that there are differences between breeds, hence the reason we choose a particular breed in the first place and some of you have even agreed with me that certain breeds are much harder and require much more time and effort on the part of the handler to achieve a happy, balanced dog. This is why I thought there should be a distinction made based on breed.

    There's a guy at Centennial Park at the moment who just bought a Malinois from a pet shop. He'd never heard of the breed before, in fact he's just calling it a Belgian Shepherd, wouldn't even know that there are types or, more importantly, that his dog is currently the chosen breed of the army and sports enthusiasts alike. It is wrong that he was allowed to buy this dog without knowing anything about it. He can't let it off the lead because at 16 weeks, it's just too 'bitey' with other dogs and people. He's under the belief that it's going to grow out of it. Well if it did, it would be the first Malinois that I've ever known that grew out of wanting to bite...

    I mean I've watched professional trainers struggle with these dogs and yet here's this poor guy who just picked a cute puppy in a pet shop.

    Australia is a disaster because the only large organised dog body we have, our ANKC, have completely removed themselves from IPO/Schutzhund because they feel they already have enough bad press. It makes no sense to me, their problems are around the fact that they have bred for looks only and this has resulted in dogs with physical and mental concerns. Here's a sport that focuses 100% on the physical and mental soundness of the dog. Seems like a solution rather than a problem to me but I know from experience that those are some of the most closed minded people you can find.

  7. #97

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    it's never a good thing when a puppy is in a pet shop is it? besides how cute they are.

    Education would be a good idea, as would getting a license to show that you at the very least understand what you are getting yourself into. It probably won't stop irresponsible owners or dog attacks at parks which was the main concern in the OP.

    Many people buy a dog because it looks cool. They love it as a pup and then when it hits about a year old they realize it's too much work for them and they get rid of it.

    More information about dog breeds, how to raise a dog and the inherent risks of owning a dog will make people think twice.

  8. #98
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    Adelaide
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    I dunno Googles.

    People mostly hate school. I don't know how you get them to learn the basics eg our state law - all dogs must be on lead on footpaths, in playgrounds... and dogs should not be allowed to harass wildlife, or people or other dogs etc. Most people don't seem to know that. Some of those rules are printed on the back of the rego bill they pay. Obviously that text is about as useful as floral wall paper as far as educating dog owners go.

    And then there are the rules that they do have to know to get a licence - ie driving - and they seem to forget those the second they get out the exam room door. And I can't remember the rules about boat licences either (five beeps means what?) (diamond circle diamond means?) etc. And I've done two courses, sat the real test once and passed, and then sat it again for kicks (scored myself did not have to resubmit but passed that time too - having just completed a heap of study) - cant remember much of it now.

    People remember stuff like what Kate was wearing on the plane steps but not where the best places are to get a puppy or how much work is involved.

    The work isn't hard but it is ongoing - and you can't ignore it or you have trouble. A bit like avoiding tax returns. And no amount of education will help me with those. Sigh.

  9. #99
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Geelong, Vic
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    871

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    So what I see - at a dog club that supposedly is against torture or harsh corrections - is lots of screaming and yelling and scolding and abuse of dogs, and lots of dogs at the end of the choke chain - continuously - there is no pop pop for some dog and handler "teams". I've seen dogs yanked around and shaken by their choke chain collars and scolded for not doing a recall properly. And that was encouraged by a former chief instructor. "the dog knows what it is supposed to do so you can punish it". And I was kind of gleeful when that same instructor got a new puppy who seemed to be very slow at learning to come when called.
    That's not training that's abuse. I've seen purely positive people shout at their dogs because there's no 'other side' to let the dog know it's done wrong. Treat only training when the dog crawls back to it's owner in a avoidance. Idiot is idiot. I have a few dogs that have come from a breed club that is like that. The dogs are actually traumatised. If I didn't have more of a lid on my emotions I'd actually rock up down there and sock one of them in the face for torture. I use corrective devices yes - but as a tool and so it doesn't demotivate the dog. Abuse is abuse no matter how you paint it.

    Depends on the dog when it comes to not biting. Some need just removing of the hands and rewarding for not touching, others a little quiet tweak on the nose or a quick thumb under the tongue. Its more the surprise factor to then redirect them. You dont need to abuse a dog to stop it biting but if you're quick and overall fair the dog learns it can't get away with stuff. This has nothing to do again with being a loud idiot.

    I dont know why the sport dog clubs for the powerful breeds are not common in Australia. I would think that they would be a good thing to help people learn more about handling them as well as having fun. I love working my sheepdogs for what they are bred for and I have met some of the most experienced old sheepdog trainers and stockmen in Australia who are always willing to impart their knowledge.
    Because we inherently fear dogs. We fear what they actually are, what they do and what they can do. So we just repress and destroy instead. You dont have to teach a dog to bite it can do that perfectly well on it's own, ANY breed. But when we used to do it it taught the dog WHEN it was allowed to bite and control work was a big part. Dogs poked, prodded, patted heavily on the head, people shouting in their faces, they were not allowed to flinch. And they had to be social, well adjusted dogs out in public. Where's the problem? Propaganda and perception by those people with an agenda - get rid of dogs. Real dogs. Leave us with toothless tigers. We complain how cruel we used to be and how far we have come, it's BS. We have regressed to a farcical level - dogs die every day because they don't fit the mold. Dont move, dont bark, dont touch, there's blame on the dog NOT the owner - but then we remove where they can go and tie the hands of the trainers who want to fix them. Mmmmmm. Logic - not.


    My school uses corrective equipment as you can see. These dogs look tortured to you? You can use corrective equipment and still produce a good result
    http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c11/Mali_nut/K9LOGO.jpg

  10. #100
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Geelong, Vic
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    871

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    This is the secretary of our new Sportdog club we have formed. Not currently open this year. This is his first German Shepherd and the dog was not 12 months old yet in this video. My cruel and abusive logic forced this dog to do this obviously lol. We are bringing back a club for large powerful breeds, teach the owners how to handle them and teach the dogs to be A1, tip top obedient not just competition but in life as well. I have also started my own InLine K9 Civilian Companion title.

    See what I mean, you can have the best of both worlds when things are in balance. But Balance is the key and reading your dog. If a novice owner can do that I think anyone can really do anything with a bit of effort. Rise up. You tell everyone else how you want to train don't let everyone tell you how you SHOULD train.
    http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c11/Mali_nut/K9LOGO.jpg

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