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Thread: Should Crossbreeds (and breeders) be discriminated with higher registration costs?

  1. #41
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    I've been to far too many pounds and shelters over the years...where do you think my beautiful Rottie cross came from. There are as I said...plenty of Dobe crosses and even pure Dobes in pounds and shelters...like on Pet Rescue...you just have to look.

    Your aim is to breed more cross breed dogs and you just can't see this is wrong in so many ways. My Dobe was main register but that didn't stop her getting Wobbler Sydrome (might want to look that up)...imagine if I had bred her...she would have passed in on to the pups and there's no test for it either. So if my girl had that...what health or temperament problems are hiding in your dogs genes...you don't know what you'll get and that's a fact as your just another backyard breeder.

    Because I've had problems with Registered Breeders as many other people have... doesn't give me the right to breed my own. There are so many dogs in pounds and shelters longing for a home to be loved and guess who's going to add to that problem.

    You might want to look at these.
    https://www.ava.com.au/sites/default..._dogs_cats.pdf
    Companion animals—a cherished part of Australian life // Animals Australia
    http://www.goldcoastbulletin.com.au/...ders-pump-out-
    Animal advocates issue warning on buying from backyard breeders | The Advertiser - Cessnock
    10 reasons why you shouldn’t buy from pet shops or backyard breeders - Roka Pet Photography
    Chloe & Zorro
    Rottweilers and German Shepherds are Family

  2. #42
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    there are plenty just like him in pounds and shelters
    In this case - I would disagree, Dogman.

    I've met this dog, and he is an amazing dog. I've read stories about him - his whole life - and they're amazing stories.

    If she can find a match for him, and gets the tests done to avoid genetic problems and can home all the puppies securely - I can't see why not.

    I've never seen a dog like him on pet rescue.

    What 99bottles would have to let go of - is the idea that any of the puppies would have the same attitude to life as him or the same personality. They might be similar but they won't be the same.

  3. #43
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    you don't breed your dog just because you or someone else wants one just like him/her?
    \

    Yes, but what do you breed for? the betterment of one breed (and where did that breed come from?) or the betterment of dogs generally.

    There is a balance between focusing on particular breed traits to the point where you have inbreeding, line breeding and genetic weaknesses become life threatening and doing some breeding that would add to the genetic diversity (and robustness) of dogs in general - but doing it in a way that you are least likely to produce bad tempered unhealthy dogs.

    I do admit - it's a lot harder for the owner of a bitch to commit to a litter of puppies given the risks (and mess and inconvenience) that go with that. And Sam is a male.

    The only criteria for responsible breeder that 99bottles wouldn't meet is a known history of the dog's ancestry, but I think she does have some info on Sam's ancestry beyond just the parent dogs.

    Personally - I know there are a lot of great cattle dogs in rescue - and I don't like the way the ANKC cattle dogs look much. Too much like corgies on stilts around here. And not very sound either. So I will probably get one of those in rescue for next dog.

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogman View Post
    I've been to far too many pounds and shelters over the years...where do you think my beautiful Rottie cross came from. There are as I said...plenty of Dobe crosses and even pure Dobes in pounds and shelters...like on Pet Rescue...you just have to look.

    Your aim is to breed more cross breed dogs and you just can't see this is wrong in so many ways. My Dobe was main register but that didn't stop her getting Wobbler Sydrome (might want to look that up)...imagine if I had bred her...she would have passed in on to the pups and there's no test for it either. So if my girl had that...what health or temperament problems are hiding in your dogs genes...you don't know what you'll get and that's a fact as your just another backyard breeder.

    Because I've had problems with Registered Breeders as many other people have... doesn't give me the right to breed my own. There are so many dogs in pounds and shelters longing for a home to be loved and guess who's going to add to that problem.

    You might want to look at these.
    https://www.ava.com.au/sites/default..._dogs_cats.pdf
    Companion animals—a cherished part of Australian life // Animals Australia
    http://www.goldcoastbulletin.com.au/...ders-pump-out-
    Animal advocates issue warning on buying from backyard breeders | The Advertiser - Cessnock
    10 reasons why you shouldn’t buy from pet shops or backyard breeders - Roka Pet Photography
    I know what Wobblers is... I spent 5 years looking for my Dobermann before I found Sammy and travelled all over the country to meet with breeders. I initially chose the ones that had the most Grand Champion titles, naively I thought that meant I was guaranteed the best. Money was no object. But I saw plenty of dogs with Wobblers. I saw a bitch only 2 years old who had the early signs of it, acknowledged by the breeder but he then goes on to say, "oh she'll be fine to have another litter..." I was told by another that Dobermanns are Labradors in Dobermann clothing. I haven't told you of my past and search for Sammy, but you should know, I have met and/or heard stories about most of the Dobermann breeders in this country, everything from breeders using dogs with known genetic conditions (and I'm not talking about carriers for von Willebrands Disease) to breeders using dogs that have intentionally removed fingers from their handlers. I'm not saying that all of the breeders were bad, some bred lovely dogs, but I was unable to find any who bred the sort of dog I wanted when I had decided to get a Dobermann. I was told by a couple of senior trainers that the dog I wanted only existed overseas - allegedly Italy has some amazing Dobermanns at the moment.

    I wasn't referring entirely to Sammy's breeds, though I have not actually seen many Dobermann crosses at all in the pound - typically if they have issues, they just get put down because such a powerful dog can easily be dangerous. What I have always focused on more though are his traits, health and abilities. Sammy was bred by a woman who had bred pure Dobermanns for 30 years. He wasn't a mistake and he wasn't bred for money - she sold him to me for next to nothing. She owns many of his relatives and keeps the same records as she did when she was breeding purebreds so we have access to that information. Many of them work security, as you'd probably expect but there's also a few working in therapy. One of Sammy's uncles works in a day care centre for children with mental disabilities. Unfortunately, his breeder is not as young as she once was and her youngest dogs are all too old to breed now. She has asked me a couple of times whether or not I would consider keeping her lines going. It's not that I don't think they're great lines and I want all the information she has so far, but I have no interest in breeding. I would only ever consider one litter to get my next dog. Plus, I have enough good homes for one litter, more than that and I think I would be too worried about Sammy's puppies being in good, suitable homes to rehome them with complete strangers.

    Not all of us would own shelter dogs and I don't believe we should have to. I didn't breed any of the dogs in shelters, none of the dogs I've ever owned are in shelters. There are a few reasons why for me personally, rescuing is not ideal. Firstly, the training that I now enjoy most needs to be started from 8 weeks. Secondly, I need to know that there's nothing unstable or thin nerved in the lines - frankly I don't want any dog where I can't see at least the parents and preferably more of the family. This is a 12-15 year commitment, hopefully more. Honestly, whilst I think it's wonderful that many people such as yourself do rescue, I worry that should the focus shift entirely to rescuing dogs, the overall quality of dogs will decrease. Obviously I don't think that being a cross-breed is a negative, but I still think only good quality dogs should be bred and any dogs that are bred should be tested both physically and mentally first. I don't want to own a dog where this has not occurred because I believe I'm increasing my chances of firstly getting a dog that will not enjoy my very active lifestyle and all the training in different sports that I like to be involved in, but also because many people do breed dogs for money and couldn't give a crap about the parents and their offspring are the dogs that occupy most of our pounds. I don't want to increase my chances of setting myself up for heartbreak with a dog that has potential hereditary conditions because I didn't see the parents and don't know whether they were tested for anything. I also don't want a desexed dog, regardless of whether I wanted to breed them or not but that's a whole other discussion.

    You still haven't answered my questions though, my only 2 questions. Why are crossbreeds inherently 'wrong' in your mind? And, what do you want from a breeder?

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    \

    Yes, but what do you breed for? the betterment of one breed (and where did that breed come from?) or the betterment of dogs generally.

    There is a balance between focusing on particular breed traits to the point where you have inbreeding, line breeding and genetic weaknesses become life threatening and doing some breeding that would add to the genetic diversity (and robustness) of dogs in general - but doing it in a way that you are least likely to produce bad tempered unhealthy dogs.

    I do admit - it's a lot harder for the owner of a bitch to commit to a litter of puppies given the risks (and mess and inconvenience) that go with that. And Sam is a male.

    The only criteria for responsible breeder that 99bottles wouldn't meet is a known history of the dog's ancestry, but I think she does have some info on Sam's ancestry beyond just the parent dogs.

    Personally - I know there are a lot of great cattle dogs in rescue - and I don't like the way the ANKC cattle dogs look much. Too much like corgies on stilts around here. And not very sound either. So I will probably get one of those in rescue for next dog.
    Yeah I don't think I'd be able to even consider it if I owned the female. Firstly I'd worry about her, I have read almost all the threads on this forum and certainly the pinned ones. But secondly, if I'm honest, having puppies seems like a lot of work. Sammy was one of 12... I am so lucky because if we do go ahead, and all of this is still a good 12 months away so honestly anything could happen in that time, but if we do, the bitch is owned by a registered breeder who has had many litters and seen it all. I get first pick of the litter, my pup for free, she then gets second pick and she sells the others to homes we both agree on.
    Last edited by 99bottles; 06-11-2014 at 06:56 AM.

  6. #46
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    99bottles,

    Everyone thinks their dog is great...but it doesn't give you the right to breed him cross or not. As I said the pounds and shelters are full of both pure and cross breed dogs. I'm sure Sammy is a lovely dog but that doesn't mean breed him...how about showing us some pictures of him.

    Dobermanns have many Hereditary Diseases...the worst IMO are...Wobbler Syndrome (CVI)...Von Willebrands Disease and Cardiomyopathy. 25 years after I got my girl...these diseases are still in this breed and that's one of the reason I never got another one. To see my girl suffer and to have her on meds for the next 6 yrs of her life was very sad. I know someone whose Dobe dropped dead at 5 yrs from Cardio and another that was a carrier for Von Willebrands Disease...they never got another Dobe either and you want to breed crosses.

    Do you really think none of his pups won't end up in the pound...then you don't know human nature do you. Why are there so many Rescue groups trying their best to save these poor dogs... because of mostly backyard breeders. You say you wouldn't want a Rescue dog but you want to breed dogs that could end up in Rescue...doesn't make sense does it. You say "I didn't breed any of the dogs in shelters" no not yet.

    Why are crossbreeds inherently 'wrong' in your mind? Didn't say they were as I've had one one myself...what I did say was wrong is the breeding of more cross breeds like you are prepossessing.

    what do you want from a breeder? Not a thing as I would rather now get a dog from Rescue (as I have) and save a life than to line the pockets of a breeder Registered or otherwise.

    A question for you...In another thread you call your dog a "man stopper" why ?
    Chloe & Zorro
    Rottweilers and German Shepherds are Family

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogman View Post
    99bottles,

    Everyone thinks their dog is great...but it doesn't give you the right to breed him cross or not. As I said the pounds and shelters are full of both pure and cross breed dogs. I'm sure Sammy is a lovely dog but that doesn't mean breed him...how about showing us some pictures of him.

    Dobermanns have many Hereditary Diseases...the worst IMO are...Wobbler Syndrome (CVI)...Von Willebrands Disease and Cardiomyopathy. 25 years after I got my girl...these diseases are still in this breed and that's one of the reason I never got another one. To see my girl suffer and to have her on meds for the next 6 yrs of her life was very sad. I know someone whose Dobe dropped dead at 5 yrs from Cardio and another that was a carrier for Von Willebrands Disease...they never got another Dobe either and you want to breed crosses.

    Do you really think none of his pups won't end up in the pound...then you don't know human nature do you. Why are there so many Rescue groups trying their best to save these poor dogs... because of mostly backyard breeders. You say you wouldn't want a Rescue dog but you want to breed dogs that could end up in Rescue...doesn't make sense does it. You say "I didn't breed any of the dogs in shelters" no not yet.

    Why are crossbreeds inherently 'wrong' in your mind? Didn't say they were as I've had one one myself...what I did say was wrong is the breeding of more cross breeds like you are prepossessing.

    what do you want from a breeder? Not a thing as I would rather now get a dog from Rescue (as I have) and save a life than to line the pockets of a breeder Registered or otherwise.

    A question for you...In another thread you call your dog a "man stopper" why ?
    What are you trying to say? That Dobermanns should never be bred? No-one should own a Dobermann, they're just too sick of a breed? It's like you can't read any of my posts beyond the fact that I state that I might breed my dog in over 12 months time IF all my conditions were met, which I have also stated and that he's a crossbreed.

    I'm aware of all these conditions and I have two things to say in response. This is one of the many reasons I'm so fixated on the need to test dogs and know their heritage. Both of these criteria are met with Sammy and with the bitch, though a couple need to wait until she's older hence we're not breeding now. Secondly, you'll note that many of those genetic ailments are exclusive to Dobermanns, although my understanding is that a similar condition (if not identical) to Wobblers is seen in certain other breeds, but interestingly, not the GSD or Rottweiler. So the very fact that Sammy will not be bred to another Dobermann (or mostly Dobermann if you will) protects the offspring from many of these conditions. It does not protect them from cancers, hip dysplasia or guarantee that they will be healthy but that is why I am only considering breeding Sammy to a bitch where her history is well known and documented and once she has undergone all of her testing. And not just physical, mental as well. I'm not sure whether you understand how the type of vWD that dogs typically have is inherited but essentially, it's recessive so they must inherit a copy from both parents. Sammy is clear.

    What about this? "Studies have shown that the Doberman Pinscher suffers from prostatic diseases, (such as bacterial prostatiti, prostatic cysts, prostatic adenocarcinoma, and benign hyperplasia) more than any other breed." I've seen many of these first hand. Have you really thought about your position? Because I've given serious thought to mine and so far there is nothing you have said that I have not already been aware of and accounted for.

    But I'm not claiming hybrid vigour is enough to rely on, I'm still making sure that both parents and their parents and other relatives are also tested and known to be healthy, intelligent dogs. I'm just eliminating a couple of the Dobermann specific conditions because you know what, money aside, I don't want sick dogs. I love having a healthy dog. I love that Sammy was playing with a purebred Dobermann, working lines from a breeder in Victoria (see if that gives it away). They both cut themselves on some corrugated iron that we didn't see in the field. Both were treated by the same vet. Sammy's injury was initially worse, he was running much faster than she was and stepped on it harder so his incision was much deeper. But guess who recovered fully? Guess who needed no antibiotics? Guess who didn't have to have half of his foot cut off? If you guessed the $2500 pure Dobermann, you guessed wrong. She had to watch from the sidelines for weeks while we all trained. But you know, she didn't even enjoy the sport anyway because any pressure on that dog and she turned tail anyway.

    There are so many incentives to having a healthy dog and you think I won't make every effort to ensure the next generation, that my next dog doesn't have the best chance of also being healthy?

    I called him a man stopper because he can stop men. If you ever go along to watch most Dobermanns in Australia do protection work, you'll find they don't often really bite (easily slip off) and any yelling or raising a stick and they're off. Whips as well as it turns out. The other alternative sadly seems to be that they go crazy and try to kill the person and no-one can stop them. I haven't seen any others in Australia and I've trained at the SA, NSW and QLD IPO/Schutzhund clubs, and besides, you can always tell by the reaction you get when you first pull out a Dobie at a new club.

    You might have gotten that quote from another thread where I was asking what everyone thought about licensing for powerful breeds. I don't think everyone would be a suitable owner for a dog like Sammy and whilst I can decide where his puppies would go (if we had any), I can't stop Joe Bloggs from buying another powerful breed from his pet shop. I already know where most (depending on how many there would be, maybe all) of the puppies will go to if we do end up breeding and no, I don't believe any would end up in the pound. Terrible things happen, people could die etc but we would be asking for the dogs back. As I mentioned, I know all of these people well and I know other people well who also know them well. They would have to go to a lot of effort to disappear off the radar, but even then, I've seen them with other dogs and I know what they're like as trainers.

    You know one of the biggest concerns I have which you haven't even asked me about but I'll mention anyway, is what if even one of those people decides to breed? I asked the breeder of Sammy and we're pretty close and she loves Sammy, I guess I hope there's a way I can ensure I have that with the owners of his offspring. I think the bitch's tests will come back good, she's a great dog and the breeder knows what she's looking for so I'm not really worried about that. I am worried that by the time everything is done, well Sammy will be almost 6 and maybe that's a bit old, maybe he won't mate for the first time? Maybe his sperm won't be viable. Anyway, I think you could really have a go at me about the first point I mentioned because it's one area where my control is severely limited, but then again, I might already be doing it for you.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by 99bottles View Post
    What are you trying to say? That Dobermanns should never be bred? No-one should own a Dobermann, they're just too sick of a breed? It's like you can't read any of my posts beyond the fact that I state that I might breed my dog in over 12 months time IF all my conditions were met, which I have also stated and that he's a crossbreed.

    I'm aware of all these conditions and I have two things to say in response. This is one of the many reasons I'm so fixated on the need to test dogs and know their heritage. Both of these criteria are met with Sammy and with the bitch, though a couple need to wait until she's older hence we're not breeding now. Secondly, you'll note that many of those genetic ailments are exclusive to Dobermanns, although my understanding is that a similar condition (if not identical) to Wobblers is seen in certain other breeds, but interestingly, not the GSD or Rottweiler. So the very fact that Sammy will not be bred to another Dobermann (or mostly Dobermann if you will) protects the offspring from many of these conditions. It does not protect them from cancers, hip dysplasia or guarantee that they will be healthy but that is why I am only considering breeding Sammy to a bitch where her history is well known and documented and once she has undergone all of her testing. And not just physical, mental as well. I'm not sure whether you understand how the type of vWD that dogs typically have is inherited but essentially, it's recessive so they must inherit a copy from both parents. Sammy is clear.

    What about this? "Studies have shown that the Doberman Pinscher suffers from prostatic diseases, (such as bacterial prostatiti, prostatic cysts, prostatic adenocarcinoma, and benign hyperplasia) more than any other breed." I've seen many of these first hand. Have you really thought about your position? Because I've given serious thought to mine and so far there is nothing you have said that I have not already been aware of and accounted for.Pinscher

    But I'm not claiming hybrid vigour is enough to rely on, I'm still making sure that both parents and their parents and other relatives are also tested and known to be healthy, intelligent dogs. I'm just eliminating a couple of the Dobermann specific conditions because you know what, money aside, I don't want sick dogs. I love having a healthy dog. I love that Sammy was playing with a purebred Dobermann, working lines from a breeder in Victoria (see if that gives it away). They both cut themselves on some corrugated iron that we didn't see in the field. Both were treated by the same vet. Sammy's injury was initially worse, he was running much faster than she was and stepped on it harder so his incision was much deeper. But guess who recovered fully? Guess who needed no antibiotics? Guess who didn't have to have half of his foot cut off? If you guessed the $2500 pure Dobermann, you guessed wrong. She had to watch from the sidelines for weeks while we all trained. But you know, she didn't even enjoy the sport anyway because any pressure on that dog and she turned tail anyway.

    There are so many incentives to having a healthy dog and you think I won't make every effort to ensure the next generation, that my next dog doesn't have the best chance of also being healthy?

    I called him a man stopper because he can stop men. If you ever go along to watch most Dobermanns in Australia do protection work, you'll find they don't often really bite (easily slip off) and any yelling or raising a stick and they're off. Whips as well as it turns out. The other alternative sadly seems to be that they go crazy and try to kill the person and no-one can stop them. I haven't seen any others in Australia and I've trained at the SA, NSW and QLD IPO/Schutzhund clubs, and besides, you can always tell by the reaction you get when you first pull out a Dobie at a new club.

    You might have gotten that quote from another thread where I was asking what everyone thought about licensing for powerful breeds. I don't think everyone would be a suitable owner for a dog like Sammy and whilst I can decide where his puppies would go (if we had any), I can't stop Joe Bloggs from buying another powerful breed from his pet shop. I already know where most (depending on how many there would be, maybe all) of the puppies will go to if we do end up breeding and no, I don't believe any would end up in the pound. Terrible things happen, people could die etc but we would be asking for the dogs back. As I mentioned, I know all of these people well and I know other people well who also know them well. They would have to go to a lot of effort to disappear off the radar, but even then, I've seen them with other dogs and I know what they're like as trainers.

    You know one of the biggest concerns I have which you haven't even asked me about but I'll mention anyway, is what if even one of those people decides to breed? I asked the breeder of Sammy and we're pretty close and she loves Sammy, I guess I hope there's a way I can ensure I have that with the owners of his offspring. I think the bitch's tests will come back good, she's a great dog and the breeder knows what she's looking for so I'm not really worried about that. I am worried that by the time everything is done, well Sammy will be almost 6 and maybe that's a bit old, maybe he won't mate for the first time? Maybe his sperm won't be viable. Anyway, I think you could really have a go at me about the first point I mentioned because it's one area where my control is severely limited, but then again, I might already be doing it for you.
    Even if you owned a pure bred Dobe I would be saying the same thing...get him desexed. You response is typical of a backyard breeder trying to justify what you're doing. Where are the pictures of him ? I'd like to see what the dog looks like and others too I'm sure.
    Chloe & Zorro
    Rottweilers and German Shepherds are Family

  9. #49

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    Sounds to me like if more breeders, pure or cross took as much care there wouldn't be any of the issues you keep bringing up Dogman.

  10. #50
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    You could have a desex clause in the pup's sale with a stipulated payback part of the costs on proof of the vet's bill? This wouldn't help if they changed their mind though then thought as you are that they want to breed later on. Might help though.

    I am against indiscriminative back yard breeding but I don't class what 99bottles is thinking of doing as this. I think she is putting much thought and effort into doing it for her right reasons should she decide to go ahead. I wish so many "breeders" would do the same but that would be in a perfect world.
    Last edited by Di_dee1; 06-11-2014 at 06:04 PM.

    Any posts made under the name of Di_dee1 one can be used by anyone as I do not give a rats.

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