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Thread: Should Crossbreeds (and breeders) be discriminated with higher registration costs?

  1. #21

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    Exactly. So where is the difference? We can't say practices are what separates pedigree breeders, because thats increasingly not the case.

    We aren't putting practices up there as the 1st thing that makes a responsible, ethical breeder. We can't because the K.C constitution says other wise. It says the 1st and most important requirement is a pedigree.

    I won't argue that registered pedigree breeders often achieve better out comes. But its not because the dogs are papered. Its because they still do attract members who believe that pedigrees are are the pinacle of good breeding practices. Those people still form a big part of the breeders culture in the K.C.s

    But now those same people are not permitted to spread their influence outside of the K.Cs. They are locked into a system that draws a line they must not cross.

    I don't know how many times I have heard reg. breeders express that publications commonly used by ordinary people aren't suitable places for adds or articles concerning pedigree dogs because they don't think the company is up to their standards.

    If you don't share information and knowledge, you can't blame the ones who don't have it for having to learn every thing the hard way. If you say that knowledge doesn't count unless its only applied to one body, you may temporarily increase knowledge within that body. But you increase ignorance outside that body too. And thats where any new members must come from, so over time your own standards drop.

    Will people who believe a pedigree stands for the pinnacle of good breeding continue to be the ones that are attracted to pedigree breeding, or will those new members come believing a pedigree will buy them legitimacy?
    Last edited by Strange fruit; 06-02-2014 at 09:05 AM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    well that would be the designer oodle crosses you find in the pet shop.

    But plenty of others are because
    "I thought she was too young to get pregnant"
    "she pushed the gate open when I was in the shower"
    "she backed up to the fence so the male could get her"
    "she was in a yard with a 2m fence and never got out - I don't know how it happened" (some dogs can jump that quite easily in and out).
    "I thought my friend's dog was desexed"
    "I didn't think she was in season"

    etc etc.
    Yes and plenty more excuses too...I remember years ago cross breed dogs were "free to good homes" now they're called stupid names and cost thousands and people buy them...with God only knows health and temp problems.

    Then there's the claims registered breeds make..."All our breeding stock are health tested" how can you test for health issues that there are no tests for. When you ring the breeder and tell they the puppy has health problems...they don't want to know. Dogs NSW say if the condition is treatable (every health issue is treatable even cancer) but the cost and suffering of both dog and owner is not... then the breeder has done nothing wrong...what a load of crap.

    If you buy a dog or puppy from the pound,shelter or rescue your taking the same risk eg health and temperament ... the only difference is your saving a life...what could be better.
    Chloe & Zorro
    Rottweilers and German Shepherds are Family

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    well that would be the designer oodle crosses you find in the pet shop.

    But plenty of others are because
    "I thought she was too young to get pregnant"
    "she pushed the gate open when I was in the shower"
    "she backed up to the fence so the male could get her"
    "she was in a yard with a 2m fence and never got out - I don't know how it happened" (some dogs can jump that quite easily in and out).
    "I thought my friend's dog was desexed"
    "I didn't think she was in season"

    etc etc.
    I'm sure that many 'cross-breed' matings are the result of the factors you've listed, but it's unfair to say that all are. The more involved I get in the dog community, honestly the less I want a 'purebred' dog. I'm not denying that if you want a dog for herding or hunting or some other specific, singular purpose, you can do well with a purebred dog - although even in those instances the crosses are very competitive (if not superior) options. But I believe that what we look for from dogs today, generally speaking, is different from what we wanted when most breeds were developed. In addition, the 'professional' breeders of today are a very different crowd - most people choose to breed working breeds with no consideration for their temperament or working ability, though why they choose these breeds I have no idea. A German Shepherd without a German Shepherd temperament and/or working ability is not a German Shepherd in my opinion, it's a dog that happens to look like one.

    Before they bred for breeds, they bred for type. You had guard types, hunting types etc. I'm more in favour of this rather than breeds for a number of reasons. Firstly, so long as we can not test for every gene and do not understand how all the genes interact with each other, I don't support any degree of inbreeding, and you would never have gotten breeds where they are genetically as similar as they are without that. I think it's too risky and almost always to the detriment of the resulting animals. I also don't think it's necessary and as such, it's not justifiable in my mind. Ok so you want a good guard dog who is fast and strong, loyal and brave. Can you prove that a pure GSD will out perform a dog specifically bred for the same task, but using GSD's, Dobermanns, Rottweilers and Belgian Shepherds? If you can't, where is the justification for breeds rather than types? And I think there needs to be a justification, because otherwise, if you can't prove that you are producing a significantly superior animal, then all you are doing is increasing the chance the dog will have multiple copies of detrimental recessive genes, that it will have a compromised immune system, reduced fertility and the list goes on.

    Today, the vast majority just want a dog that is a good companion (most dogs tick this box), that is healthy and long-lived (many breeds don't tick this box) and that suits their lifestyle in terms of activity levels, trainability, size etc (again not that hard to determine). I'm not saying that cross-breed dogs are always healthier, you have to look at the parents breeds and then what you're crossing with. So for example, if you breed a Golden Retriever with a German Shepherd, hip dysplasia is still a possible issue because both breeds have a high incidence of this condition. Evaluation, assessment, testing and planning are still required for any mating. But I am saying that I believe breeding for type rather than trying to produce identical animals would overall produce healthier animals.

    I am not talking about indiscriminate breeding, throwing 2 random dogs together and hoping to make a profit. I am talking about knowing what you want and picking dogs that demonstrate these characteristics throughout multiple generations but disregarding breed for the reasons I have mentioned.

    I wasn't sure whether to reveal this or not but I'm not ashamed of it so I'm not going to hide it. Sammy is 4.5 years old now. I have had many stud offers for him over his life, the most recent has been through our new training club where he has been learning scent detection. I have been offered $1500 as a stud fee. My bf at the time could not understand why I declined but I hadn't had an offer from a dog I thought would be a good match for him. But he's 4.5 years old now. I have seen what he is capable of mentally, how strong his immune system is (and had multiple vets comment on this), how athletic he is, stable and how loving and loyal he is. We have had his hips x-rayed, full physicals, he has been tested extensively mentally and physically over the years and my vet ended up asking me for a puppy if we ever breed him because he said he thought he was a superior specimen (his words, not mine). I have 5 people now total, some that have stayed in contact for over 2 years (like the vet), seriously committed to having a puppy from Sammy, and many others that I would have to further assess myself before I would consider them as potential owners, because Sammy is a wonderful dog but needs owners who want more from a dog than just something pretty and good to hug.

    Earlier this year, I was approached by a woman who breeds German Shepherds and Rottweilers, working lines. She had one litter by request between her stud GSD male and one of her Rottweilers. Allegedly it's a cross in demand and although the pups weren't registered, she still got the same per puppy as she does for her pure registered litters. She kept one bitch for herself and loves her. It's a very pretty dog, very intelligent and has excelled so far at everything she has done with this dog. It's now about 12 months old. It's a long story, but ultimately, she asked whether I would consider using Sammy over her and honestly, I am considering it. She didn't offer me any money, just pick of the litter for myself and a say in who is allowed to buy the pups. I have said that I will wait until her bitch is 2 and she will need to have her tested and I will watch what she can achieve with her training wise. She has agreed. So I guess we see what happens.

    I'm sure there's plenty of people who will judge me for this because these puppies will be multi-generational crosses. I would be breeding for all the traits I value - intelligence, loyalty, trainability, health, working drive, physical power/athleticism and capacity to love, not to mention I bet they'll be a bit cute. The pups won't all look identical but I do believe they will all have those characteristics, and frankly I have never minded having a dog that stands out and is unique appearance wise. It will be a one-off litter because she will then be spaying her bitch. Also, I am only open to the idea because I know that even though Sammy comes from long-lived lines, he won't live forever and the closest thing I can have to him is one of his puppies. He is not a dog for everyone and I would be very very selective about the homes for his offspring so he will only be bred once - so I will only have a limited number of pups to worry about if this all goes ahead.

    Anyway, now it's out on the table and people know that I am considering intentionally helping to facilitate a cross-bred litter.

  4. #24
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    Very well said 99bottles!

    Quote Originally Posted by 99bottles View Post
    The more involved I get in the dog community, honestly the less I want a 'purebred' dog. I'm not denying that if you want a dog for herding or hunting or some other specific, singular purpose, you can do well with a purebred dog - although even in those instances the crosses are very competitive (if not superior) options.
    I totally get what you're saying in the above quote. Just because a dog is a cross breed doesn't mean its from a puppy farm or that it is going to be riddled with health or behavioural problems. From my personal experience most of the cross breeds I know have been heaps healthier than the registered pure breeds i know. I also totally understand what you mean by 'The more involved I get in the dog community, honestly the less I want a 'purebred' dog'. For me its more the less i want to just be involved in the pure breed dog world (showing and registered breeders and all that). I think I'll probably always have pure breed dogs, but gosh i don't like getting involved with registered breeders, a lot of them are so nasty! There are exceptions of course, but that is just a generalisation from some of my experience.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddogdodge View Post
    Very well said 99bottles!



    I totally get what you're saying in the above quote. Just because a dog is a cross breed doesn't mean its from a puppy farm or that it is going to be riddled with health or behavioural problems. From my personal experience most of the cross breeds I know have been heaps healthier than the registered pure breeds i know. I also totally understand what you mean by 'The more involved I get in the dog community, honestly the less I want a 'purebred' dog'. For me its more the less i want to just be involved in the pure breed dog world (showing and registered breeders and all that). I think I'll probably always have pure breed dogs, but gosh i don't like getting involved with registered breeders, a lot of them are so nasty! There are exceptions of course, but that is just a generalisation from some of my experience.
    First of all I will say that I dont really have a problem with crossbreeds as many of our working herding dogs are somtimes crossed to enhance and capture valuable herding traits that suit your livestock enterprise. A huntaway/ kelpie cross is common here and further north there are cattle dog/BC crosses and so on. In the herding world it is all about the proven working ability and herding traits and lines of the parents. However cullling is part and parcel of the herding world. Poor health, structure, temperament is often the end of the road for that particular dog and the responsible breeders choose their matings carefully. Most breeders tend to keep the Border collie, kelpie charateristics failry true, but will add a splash of another breed from time to time if they thing a superior animal may be the result.

    I dont have a problem so much if the health testing has been done and it is better if there is a reasonable history of each dog and some idea of the health and lineage. Unpleasant conditions can sometimes skip a generation so history is good.

    As to crossbreds being healthier? I would have to say that this is not my experience. They have been about the same. I have known some crossbreds with some terribles structures and a raft of problems. I have know several euthed for hip and elbow dysplasias and temperament issues. It really is all about understanding the temperaments, structures and lines of the dogs you want to mate. The more you know the less the potential problems are likely to manifest, I would guess.

    The next thing obviously is to be responsible for the puppies.
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 06-02-2014 at 04:01 PM.

  6. #26
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    He is not a dog for everyone and I would be very very selective about the homes for his offspring so he will only be bred once - so I will only have a limited number of pups to worry about if this all goes ahead.
    What is a responsible companion animal breeder? - RSPCA Australia knowledgebase

    1. match supply to demand - you've already got potential homes lined up for puppies and I'm sure you'd take back any puppies that weren't wanted for whatever reason.

    2. Provide a high standard of care and living conditions for their animals
    I think Sammy has a better life than your partners... probably deserves it too.
    This also means that the bitch will be well looked after, get plenty of vet attention, and the environment where the puppies will be will be kept clean. In RSPCA speak - I think this means bleached concrete but it's possible to do it in the family home too.

    3. Demonstrate a genuine concern for the animals in their care
    check.

    4. Be open and transparent and provides a complete history of the animal
    How well do you know Sammy's breeder and ancestry - without getting them in trouble with ANKC...

    5. Will be aware of any known inherited disorders for their particular breed (and take steps to avoid)
    Check

    6. Provide ongoing support and information to the new owner
    I can't imagine you not doing this and I can imagine you keeping tabs until you're sure the puppy is ok.

    7. Will generally provide a guarantee (timeframes may vary)
    check - see above - if they're slow returning puppy eg it's 8 months old then definitely no refund but you'd take back ahead of PTS unless something had dramatically gone wrong.

    8. Provide references on request
    bit hard for first time breeders - but I'm sure the vet who is a fan could help with this.

    9. Hmm I don't know where number 9 went.

    10. Comply with the relevant local and state/territory legislation and codes of practice including any registration and licensing requirements

    QLD and NSW have updated their rules regards puppy farms and breeding so you want to be careful about this.
    Last edited by Hyacinth; 06-03-2014 at 10:22 PM. Reason: no idea how the rspca page got pasted in oops

  7. #27
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    99bottles,

    My GSD Rex is main register and so was my Dobermann...both were desexed at the correct age because I love the breeds for what they are...not for what I can get out of them unlike backyard breeders and puppy mills who are motivated by greed only.

    Having said that...I for the life of me cannot understand why you would want to breed more cross breed dogs...given the fact that there are so many of these poor dogs looking for homes now. I feel from your post 23 you seem to think your doing something wonderful...but in reality just creating more unwanted cross breeds that will fill the pounds and shelters...very sad.
    Chloe & Zorro
    Rottweilers and German Shepherds are Family

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogman View Post
    99bottles,

    My GSD Rex is main register and so was my Dobermann...both were desexed at the correct age because I love the breeds for what they are...not for what I can get out of them unlike backyard breeders and puppy mills who are motivated by greed only.

    Having said that...I for the life of me cannot understand why you would want to breed more cross breed dogs...given the fact that there are so many of these poor dogs looking for homes now. I feel from your post 23 you seem to think your doing something wonderful...but in reality just creating more unwanted cross breeds that will fill the pounds and shelters...very sad.
    I don't think I'm doing something wonderful, I just don't think it's any worse than anyone else breeding dogs - purebred or not. If I do end up breeding him, well he's already had all his tests, achieved titles etc and the bitch will also need to be tested. It's still a good 12 months off if it even happens so it's not exactly something we're rushing into. Just out of interest, how many tests and titles do the parents of your dogs have? I'm not having a go at you and I'm sure your dogs are lovely so I hope you don't take it that way. I am just curious as to how you decided you had found a good, ethical breeder, ie what you based your decision on.

    If I perform all available tests, physical and mental, screen homes extremely carefully, only giving puppies to homes where the owners have owned large dogs before and have done extensive training - what about it exactly is wrong? I understand they wouldn't be purebred and so you can't predict to the same degree what you're going to get, but in this instance, I know at least 4 generations of dogs on both sides going into both dogs, so we can have a pretty good idea of what's going to come out.

    Plenty of people buy mixed breed dogs, increasingly people seek them out. I believe that everyone has the right to an ethical breeder but why do you have to buy a dog with a high inbreeding coefficient? All purebred dogs have this to the extreme. Crossing cows, horses etc is all fine, so why is it unacceptable to cross dogs? I'm not saying there shouldn't be purebred dogs. I'm asking why people shouldn't be allowed to own a cross-breed 'mutt' if that's what they'd prefer?

    I have been to several pounds and what I saw were mainly staffies and staffy crosses. I know of plenty of people who think they will make money from breeding dogs, and staffies are the most popular breed. Dogs are a money sink as far as I'm concerned - my reasons for even considering to breed Sammy are very different. I don't really get your argument. If we did breed them, I would be very strict about who we let have a puppy and fortunately with all the people who have asked for one, I will have to be crazy fussy anyway just because there's no way she could have that many puppies.

  9. #29
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    I'm sorry but how on earth is a responsible person who does all the health tests, knows the history of their dogs and has homes lined up for any puppies, who decides to breed cross breed dogs any worse than a responsible person who decides to breed pure breed dogs?
    This often plays on my mind, responsible X breed breeders are looked down on because they are apparently 'filling up the pounds with more dogs' even though the breeder chose the homes very carefully and offered to take the dogs back at any time. Yet its fine for someone to do the exact same thing if they have pure breeds, and its not considered 'filling up the pounds'.

    There are plenty of pure breed dogs who get dumped at pounds as well, even ones from registered breeders.

    Don't get me wrong, i'm not supporting unethical breeding, pure or x breed.
    Last edited by maddogdodge; 06-03-2014 at 10:27 PM.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogman View Post
    99bottles,

    My GSD Rex is main register and so was my Dobermann...both were desexed at the correct age because I love the breeds for what they are...not for what I can get out of them unlike backyard breeders and puppy mills who are motivated by greed only.

    Having said that...I for the life of me cannot understand why you would want to breed more cross breed dogs...given the fact that there are so many of these poor dogs looking for homes now. I feel from your post 23 you seem to think your doing something wonderful...but in reality just creating more unwanted cross breeds that will fill the pounds and shelters...very sad.
    And there you have the problem with the current system. people are NOT taught that ethical and responsible practices are what make a good breeder.A pedigree does, and only once you have a pedigree does anything else come into it.

    The focus is all on the pedigree, not the dogs or how results are achieved. No wonder communities are confused.
    The pedigree is given a life of its own. All a pedigree is, is a record of whats gone before for any who will learn to use it.

    History. A pedigree represents history. Its not a replacement for history, just a representation and documentation. Either a breeder knows how to make good use of available history, or they don't.
    Last edited by Strange fruit; 06-04-2014 at 09:17 AM.

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