Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 29

Thread: why not call show/pet & orignal style dogs different breeds

  1. #1

    Default why not call show/pet & orignal style dogs different breeds

    there are numerous breeds around that have split into clearly and obviously different sub-species of each other. i can take a complete newb that has never owned a dog and with 5 minutes tutorial i can flash images of different lines of the same breed to them and they can correctly identify the differences wheteher they are kelpie, BC, various bulldogs, all the herders......

    so if they are so clear and obviously different in both phenotype and temperament why keep arguing over which is the more correct version and just officially make things easier for the dog buying public to get a good match for the next 10-15 years and just make an official split which is already there anyway unofficially.

    i have seen show dogs end up in working homes only to be taken out and shot cos they were not worth feeding and working dogs in pet homes euthed or rehomed once the family realised the nightmare they were living and were scared of their own dog or worse, bad fits by newbs not knowing there was research even to be done and unscrupulous breeders selling puppies. the newbs think that buying a purebred means it will act like it says in the standard not knowing how the dog will act and respond to training is determined by the line, the mating combination and a particular pup in a litter - what is written in the standard is as useful in real terms as an ash-tray on a motor-bike, experienced people know this but that doesn't help the well meaning newb looking for a companion for the next 10 years or so.

    what could we lose, what could we gain?

    keep in mind a breed is not recognised by science, there is no such thing, a breed is only recognised by a committee in a breed club and bought in and out of existence with the stroke of a pen. different countries and breed clubs even have different standards for the same breed.

    is the breed concept in terms of purity any benefit at all, or should the focus just be on healthy, consistent/uniform dogs of a predictable temp/traits??

    i think in the way old days dogs were not classified as breed at all, it was just types of dogs recognised by how they worked and less so on coat colour, size etc. seems to be a more logical system from which the "breeds" emerged from only fairly recently, but nobody can prove the different approach has actually improved anyhting. detailed pedigrees and matings have been recorded for a very long time for just about every type of farm animal to high levels of accuracy even if it was just hand-written in some farmers diary.

    thoughts?
    Last edited by muttboy; 07-23-2013 at 10:23 AM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Rural Western Australia
    Posts
    2,635

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by muttboy View Post
    i have seen show dogs end up in working homes only to be taken out and shot cos they were not worth feeding and working dogs in pet homes euthed or rehomed once the family realised the nightmare they were living and were scared of their own dog or worse, bad fits by newbs not knowing there was research even to be done and unscrupulous breeders selling puppies. the newbs think that buying a purebred means it will act like it says in the standard not knowing how the dog will act and respond to training is determined by the line, the mating combination and a particular pup in a litter - what is written in the standard is as useful in real terms as an ash-tray on a motor-bike, experienced people know this but that doesn't help the well meaning newb looking for a companion for the next 10 years or so.
    I have yet to see a showbred working breed end up in a genuine working home I have to say. Any self respecting livestock farmer out here certanly does not have a showbred within cooee of their radar and and they only get their dogs from proven working lines or they breed their own dogs. Working bred dogs that dont shape up are often shot, that is just a fact of life. There is no confusion in the eyes of a stockman, they know what they are looking for.

    Good working breeders select heavily for traits that fit the type of livestock and the terrain that they are breeding for. They will often add a slpash of kelpie to a BC, or a splash of huntaway to a kelpie, but they are doing this to set and capture traits, so it is done with a purpose. They will also line and inbreed to set traits. Good working breeders aim to improve the quality and usefulness of their working dogs and it can very definitely improve the quality of the dogs. You do need different types of builds and traits for different situations and they need to be consistant.

    I have however observed the reverse and there are plenty of working breds dumped in the pounds by suburban folk unprepared for entertaining a working bred in the city.

    I think this is why people are encouraged to do their research on a particular breed and find a registered breeder that has a done all the genetic testing and selects also for temperament suitable for companion dogs. Breeds do have similarities. I have had a lot of cattle dogs and even from different lines and backgrounds I have to say that they do have very definite quirks and characteristics common across the lot of them that are quite different to say the whippets that we have also had a lot of and which also have very definite charateristics.


    I guess having a selection of different breeds gives people a choice. I personally have no interest in owning small fluffy dogs or very large dogs. Some people live in apartments, some people like to jog, some are coach potatoes. Hence different breeds suit different people. The key to the choice and being able to get a good healthy example of the chosen breed is a reputable breeder who breeds consistant quality dogs. This isnt rocket science just too many people breeding dogs without too much care along with fads in the form various breeds have taken which is not always in the best interest of the dogs.

    With a sensible approach we should be able to breed a range of different types of dogs that suit a range of requirements that are consistant and healthy which is probably why breeds emerged.

    But heck we are humans, we have the knowledge and power, but unfortunately greed and ignorance sometimes gets the better of us.

    .

  3. #3

    Default

    yes but how many average pet people even know what they don't know and what questions to ask, most breeders are crap imo and just want to move product/puppies. they know exactly what to tell the newb to get the sale, very few average joe's know how to interprett an x-ray or that they even exist or understand what mating combinations will result in what, they just go with what they read about the breed as a whole which tells you nothing.

    as far as working dogs, they dissapeared off most farms for decades and so did the skills in handling them, it is only fairly recent they have been acknowledged as a finacial assestt again to the majority of farmers and most farmers do not have the skill base to train/select or work them. they are shooting a lot of dogs because of their own ignorance. i know cos i am involved in guys/farmers that have got a new income stream training farmers how to work/train/select dogs for work and that the stock are also part of the loop and have to be trained with the dogs. some farmers might well pay top dollar for a working dog bring it home that day and start yelling, screaming, beating the dog cos the farmer is the cluless idiot in the equation and the dog is dead by the end of the day.

    same for a security company that bought a bunch of expensive show herders to do patrol work, it was an expensive disaster, the guy who bought them was a HR guy and did his "research" and bought from champion imported lines, as soon as we saw the dogs the guys that knew dogs were face palming themselves for pretty obvious reasons...poor dogs being asked to do something they had no genetics to do.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Rural Western Australia
    Posts
    2,635

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by muttboy View Post
    yes but how many average pet people even know what they don't know and what questions to ask, most breeders are crap imo and just want to move product/puppies. they know exactly what to tell the newb to get the sale, very few average joe's know how to interprett an x-ray or that they even exist or understand what mating combinations will result in what, they just go with what they read about the breed as a whole which tells you nothing.

    as far as working dogs, they dissapeared off most farms for decades and so did the skills in handling them, it is only fairly recent they have been acknowledged as a finacial assestt again to the majority of farmers and most farmers do not have the skill base to train/select or work them. they are shooting a lot of dogs because of their own ignorance. i know cos i am involved in guys/farmers that have got a new income stream training farmers how to work/train/select dogs for work and that the stock are also part of the loop and have to be trained with the dogs. some farmers might well pay top dollar for a working dog bring it home that day and start yelling, screaming, beating the dog cos the farmer is the cluless idiot in the equation and the dog is dead by the end of the day.

    same for a security company that bought a bunch of expensive show herders to do patrol work, it was an expensive disaster, the guy who bought them was a HR guy and did his "research" and bought from champion imported lines, as soon as we saw the dogs the guys that knew dogs were face palming themselves for pretty obvious reasons...poor dogs being asked to do something they had no genetics to do.
    Not sure we you live but sheepdogs where I live have always been a part of farming. I have been involved in farming most my life and there have always been good dogs, with 5- 10,000 head of sheep on many farms they are valued. I have a couple myself on my farm as do my neighbours. I have friends who breeds top quality working dogs and there is plenty of demand although the droughts have reduced sheep numbers over the last few years. Yes you do get the clueless idiots, my friends have taken back a few dogs, but in general most dogs do okay. There are also some working dog trainers around and most good breeders will sell started dogs.

    You would think that a company looking for patrol dogs would not send an HR person to do the research. They would find out surely where the police and miliatary source their working dogs and hire a person that knows dogs to source the dogs from appropriate working lines.

    Unfortunately it is buyer beware because there are many unscrupulous breeders out there. I think the concept of breeds development and working towards a healthy consistant product is not a bad idea. It just that there are many charlatans out there. How you stop this I have no idea. I guess most of the time we learn by our mistakes or are lucky enough to jag an ethical breeder.

    In terms of separating them up this has been proposed in America for Border collies, after the Border collie wars. They wanted to call showbred collies Barbie collies, yeah right! As a farmer I certainly know the difference as I look for specific qualities and showbred dogs dont cross my radar. Impossible to police really, it is up to the buyer to be savvy particularly if looking for working potential.
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 07-23-2013 at 01:34 PM.

  5. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalacreek View Post

    You would think that a company looking for patrol dogs would not send an HR person to do the research.
    haha, yes that would be logical wouldn't it.

    the ones that argue most imo about not splitting the breeds is for a reason i can not understand are the ones that breed the furthest away from what the dogs are supposed to be? typically without fail the showies do not want the split which they created made formal.

    it is weird they take the original breed and turn it into something that neither resembles the breed in looks, structure, temp, traits, turn it into a differnt dog (sub-species) and then shout down any logical step to make a split.

    riddle me that one???

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Rural Western Australia
    Posts
    2,635

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by muttboy View Post
    haha, yes that would be logical wouldn't it.

    the ones that argue most imo about not splitting the breeds is for a reason i can not understand are the ones that breed the furthest away from what the dogs are supposed to be? typically without fail the showies do not want the split which they created made formal.

    it is weird they take the original breed and turn it into something that neither resembles the breed in looks, structure, temp, traits, turn it into a differnt dog (sub-species) and then shout down any logical step to make a split.

    riddle me that one???
    I often think that show breeders think their dogs can have it all. Showbreeders of traditional breed working dogs still claim to breed for form and function. I know a lot of very nice showbred Border collies that people use successfully as sport dogs such as in agility, obedience and all breed herding. However this is very different to farm and station type stock work. But in the end what do you call the dogs. Essentially they all look like Border collies for example. The showbreds are just more consistant looking than the more diverse working bred dogs which are often bred to suit the environment and stock. In other countries the line is more blurred so you can have a dual registered ISDS and ANKC Border collie if you import these dogs. To be honest the farmers around here couldnt care less about such things, I doubt they even know or care that showbreds exist. They deal with the reputable working dog breeders in the area and source what they need. One of the working breeders I work stock with doesnt know what the ANKC is, when I explained he brushed it of as something for city folk that was of no concern to him.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    melbourne australia
    Posts
    3,082

    Default

    Unfortunately, they sent in the wrong dogs, whilst the stats were collected. Because of the lack of their success. In Victoria Australia, since July 2013, we are ceasing to use sniffer dogs. The success rate was way too low. 33% is not sufficient to warrant, assaulting someone, which is legal speak for searching a innocent, and 77 potential counter claims/damages.

    Farm dogs. Where i grew up, folks had dogs. We had dogs. The family members that had herding dogs then, have adapted with the times, but to this day, the living is earned with dogs. This present time its pheasant shooting for the toffs. It pays well, when foot and mouth and BSE have rid you of your herd/ income. Because, they are dog training enthusiasts. Who pass this passion on. Here i am, working my dogs. For fun.
    So whilst they are not herding, they are now working labs and spaniel gun dogs. Same passion for working with dogs continues. On the 'Toff farm'.

    I think that there is already a alternative breed, for each breed i guess. The conformation dog, and the working dog.
    I grew up with BC's working cattle and sheep. But piddly numbers compared to those here in vast Aus land.
    I see fat BC's these days, and i wonder what sort of dog is that? Its not behaving like a BC in my head.

    Because dogs behaviour, is what fascinates me, i seriously watch them for hours interacting.
    Then the working line is for me, because there is more behaviours to observe.
    I have a working line GSD. He's fantastic, injured up 6 months ago. Not to do so much now. Problem is, i only ever found a temporary off switch. Without jobs to do, frisbee's to catch, things to track. Balls to fetch. Rabbits to chase. Swimming in the lake, He's a bloody nightmare! And this is all ok, till you are injured, seriously, for any of us with high octaine dogs. Would you dog behave for another who would step in exercise him for you? i know i dont have one of those folks in my life.

    I have a bordeaux 1yr pup boy. BYB? line.
    Not trained, just settling in, and learning sit, outside of food reward 100% of times, and not drag me around. !
    But i watch him and think, man, his skin needs special attention, coz of all those folds, or yeast sets up its own farm, he cant breathe easily, he's gonna die early, as his system is gonna be worked, 'like a dog' for his natural born days to support such massiveness. His breed cannot give birth without medical intervention often. What the heck have we made here!
    But god he looks cute. < see, its disgusting isnt it.

    Ive got no idea what DDB are supposed to be able to do, but it cant be much They must of been bred to look at. As they are fantastic at being looked at. On command, instant obedience. Is it that this is so adorable somehow,that ensures we keep producing genetically nonviable specimens/breed?

    I used to attend conformation shows with my BC's. It was pre registration of their pedigree.
    So i guess im on the back foot to start with maybe.
    But i was there for the fun stuff, the fast stuff. Like agility and obedience. Stuff n nonsense is a Kennel Club, any country.

    I dont like it when a breed can no longer do what they were bred for. I dont see that as in the breeds interest, i see it as in the human's interest. Hence pet stock BC's. That are happy couch potatoes.

    I know roughly a fair few families with livestock, they all have dogs.
    None of them buys their dogs from a conformation breeder. Where i got my GSD, i was so lucky, i have known his parents, and his dad in particular, was a marvelous dog. And the apple has not fallen far from the tree. In a litter of 12 pups, 11 were homed before birth to other working lives.

    And i certainly remember dogs being shot throughout my childhood. It is just what was done. But it takes all i have to be there for my dog at a vet at the end, i couldnt pull a trigger myself, but would not judge someone as completely bad for doing this.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Adelaide
    Posts
    12,581

    Default

    keep in mind a breed is not recognised by science, there is no such thing
    This is not entirely true. Science is about observation, record keeping and controlled experiments. ANKC and other breed registries are very much about science - they're making experiments, observations and keeping records. The quality of the science may vary between breeders but it's there. Much more so that people who have dogs from random dog matings. Even the best farmers - perform the same breeding science. They make choices, and record the results, and use those records to improve their choices the next time around.

    A breed is not the same as a species. A separate species is when it cannot mate with another species and produce fertile offspring. So the edges of species is a bit blurry - dingos and dogs can mate and have fertile offspring. Not sure about wolves. Suspect the ones that could interbreed with dogs are extinct now. Great danes and Chihuahua can mate and have fertile offspring. A working line BC and a show BC can ...

    So the ANKC and other kennel clubs are all about record keeping and making observations. It is interesting that the very obvious breeds managed to happen before the ANKC or very good record keeping. But as the science progresses and there is more data available and fun things like DNA profiles - people who cheat in their breeding or introduce a little bit of something else can be sprung because now it can be proved who the parents of the litter are (or are not).

    We're only just starting to renew the scientific study (hypothesis, controlled experiments, observations, record keeping, review) of temperament as related to breed and breeding in animals and humans. There is a huge genetic component. And that all got squashed because of a certain Austrian abused the knowledge. Same with training... there's a fine line between learning a new skill or trick and brain washing. But - marketing people (funded by industries with a lot of money) don't really care - they're hugely invested in selling more of their product and will devise various ways of doing so, and record the results, review and improve...

    So now we have the breeds that evolved for a purpose - mostly in some sort of geographical isolation combining with some very strong science - and it affects the way a creature looks, lives and thinks. Not just dogs, but every critter from bees to humans.

    as far as working dogs, they dissapeared off most farms for decades and so did the skills in handling them
    seriously? lemme see - when did they ever disappear off farms completely? Not the farms in my family - going back to horse and cart days and before. Tho the farmers sure could benefit from some of the knowledge we now have with training. There were always the farmers who were better at training dogs... and they used the older dogs to train the younger ones. And the dogs that couldn't work with the farmer - yes that farmer always had an option.

    You have to factor in the human randomness that goes with this. After WWI - a bunch of soldiers were put out on small blocks of land to farm - a bit of a disaster there. Many of these people were city people - no idea how to grow or farm anything. So that went really well. Not. After WWII - or even before - heaps of migrants from over crowded cities - trying to farm. And had no idea about how to manage animals or soil or plants - also worked well - not. There'd be a few who had the right knowledge and aptitude to do it but lots who failed. Better off running shops in town.

    And more recently - with divorce law - giving half the farm to the departing partner... and sometimes death duties and taxes - meant the farm could not be passed on intact to the son - or if there was more than one child - it would be split into pieces too small to be economic... not good. The best at managing this - were farmers who bought out the guys who should have been shop keepers and expanded their holdings so there was plenty for when it had to be divided. This is getting a bit hard with the Chinese and our big two supermarkets buying up arable land and inflating the price beyond what a single farmer can afford.

    And probably the biggest contributor to problem dogs - people who can buy any dog they like the look of - and do - with no understanding of what that particular breed needs. And when the dog becomes impossible - they blame the dog - and buy a new one. Often with the exact same problems. People see stuff on telly and copy that but don't understand why it doesn't work for them. But if they'd gotten the dog that was a popular companion animal or ratter town dog in their local village - it would not have been a problem. Instead they get the really smart farm dog who is way too demanding and too smart and destructive to be happy in town. And keeps hogging the heater.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Geelong, Vic
    Posts
    871

    Default

    They are all the same subspecies no matter the breed, Canis Lupus Familiaris. There will always be variation within a breed, they still are the breed and comply to the breed standard, they just have diverged into some temperamental and physical differences. There will always be variation within the breed, it's why there are temperament tests and different titles, if you want a dog for protection you don't go to a show breeder, and vice versa.

  10. #10

    Default

    highly reccomend Tony Parsons book on the kelpie from a guy who is a connection almost to the very start of the breed and spent his life in it. he goes into some detail on the negative impact of the world wars on the breeding programs of the kelpie and the loss of them as farm tools and the loss of many people that knew how to work them.

    for those that remember the 70's it was not just dogs that stopped being used on farms. due to record floods and low stock prices a big chunk of dogs, horses, people, stock all walked off the land together and left the land permanently.

    the impact on lost skills was immense. i came on the scene after a decade of total neglect and was one of the first to bring dogs back to several generations of cleanskins running wild on huge unfenced runs, rubber vine for miles..... we had to work out completely new systems of stock "management" we organised and developed the concept of coordinating choppers, coacher cattle, bull catchers, hesion yards, there was nobody around to ask how it was done, we had to figure it out and make new systems as we went along. the first chopper pilots were suicidal self medicaters from the vietnam war....fun way to grow up and a piece of history and a lifestyle gone and most will never know it even happened or how it happened.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •