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Thread: So many different methods of training - the two major competing theories

  1. #21
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    The OP is clearly smart enough to analyse what they read and will be able to pure out the knowledge they need eventually. Been there, done that, confusion and feeling overwhelmed and all. Got out the other end with a pretty clear idea of my interpretation of common sense dog training theory and techniques.

    But in the end of course it isn't a theoretic science. You'll only really get it if you practice it. I think like lots of people I was reluctant to use treats for example. Until I experienced the whole process from start to finish and now I am a massive fan. Because it goes so way deeper than 'bribing' your dog into being 'good'. Using the clicker also taught me a lot. I rarely use it anymore now, but I don't think I would've "got it" as fast if I wouldn't have at the start. So it was a training tool for me more than for the dog!

  2. #22
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    Lol @Ceowulf

    I did the same kinds of things when I first started. If you think kikopup can work for you - stick with that for now.

    Like Bernie says - if your dog can't pay attention to you - you're too close to the distraction. Eventually you will be able to reduce the distance a distraction becomes overwhelming - but for now - your dog is telling you - that distraction at 80m is way too close for her to cope with.

    So given that's pretty much the opposite side of the oval already - how far can you retreat? Out of sight would be a good start. You can even use your own body for this ie "blocking the view" or just "blocking". And when your dog notices there is something in the way and looks at you instead - praise like you won lotto and never have to work again.

    You can also just wait - but if your dog is completely going off - that is "self reinforcing" ie she will get worse until you stop her or interrupt her somehow. I think you will need to try a few different things to work out how best to interrupt. My faves would be
    1. more distance - just drag her further and further away (out of sight) until she stops focussing on the distraction.
    2. blocking - use your body to break her line of sight to the distraction.
    3. put her back in the car, and just wait. or even leave. But this really sucks. Depending how much she likes being at the park and how much she can calm down in the car - she might get the connection between going off and leaving.

    But fundamentally you have to get her to understand she doesn't need to be so reactive at other dogs (or perceived threats).
    She won't learn anything while she's over the top excited about it. There is a zone between being unfocussed and obsessed - where a dog can pay attention to you and learn what you want. If you can get a conditioned response (technical term for obey without thinking eg pavlov's dog) then you will be able to get your dog's attention when you want no matter what. This involves really high value rewards, not much distraction (to start with), and a fair bit of repetition. Ie think about how many times the bell had to ring before dinner to get a dog salivating? The dog doesn't think "I will slobber now" - it just happens because the connection between the bell and food has been repeated so often - it's "hard wired".

    And no jerking around on the leash was used to achieve that result.

    I think given you haven't had this dog very long - lots of aversives (things the dog doesn't like) will just break the bond you might be developping and you'll end up with a dog that is scared of you - instead of one that loves to please you. I dunno if there is some leerburg for beginners but like nekhbet said - there is some stuff that says reward this, stop this.

    One good game to start at home - in front of the telly then the back yard - is the collar grab game. So you want to pair grabbing your dog's collar with yummy treats - so eventually when you put your hand out to grab the collar the dog will actually throw her collar at you to get the treat.

    Once the dog has a good understanding of what the game is - you reward only the average or better performed responses - so it's more random and the treat is only for best response. And the treat becomes just praise and pats and only sometimes yummy food. You can also be more inventive about how you grab the collar ie start off very gentle - maybe only approaching the collar and then build up to the sort of wild yelling collar grabs you'd do when you need to escape a horde of stampeding cattle in a hurry.

    When you've gotten to this point in the lounge room, you can start again in the back yard (with a line on so she can't bolt to the fence). Just practicing grabbing the collar.
    Last edited by Hyacinth; 12-07-2012 at 05:49 PM. Reason: I know what I mean but that's not what I typed

  3. #23
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    My apologies for consistently calling your dog a he by the way!

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nekhbet View Post
    I gave you leerburg to read because there was some bare bones basic explanations of dog behavior in an accessable form. No way would Ed ever tell you to put a prong or shock collar on you average pet dog... well most of them lol

    Bernie, the leerburg website does have a lot of useful information for pet owners as well, unfortunately most people wade straight into the working dog section of the articles. There is also Michael Ellis on youtube. Saying that a dog is a dog, working or pet their brains all work in the same manner.

    If your dog is not obedient put it on a long line. This way you limit mistakes and you can control the animals behavior until it proves it will willingly turn to you and want to listen.



    Are you serious ... these people actually charge for their advice?

    How do you get a dogs attention - remove the stimulus catching their eye out of range OR be more interesting and reward focus. Basically move the dog further, reward every time it looks at you with pats/treat/toy

    I think too you're too caught up in everything. Stop reading the internet you're confused and really you didnt read leerburg properly either so go play with the dog more time with the dog, less time on the internet I think is the best remedy for all of this lol
    Haha well, in my defense the only time I get to sit on the net and read is when Peppa is flaked out on her bed just next to me. It's those times that I wish I was able to just go pass out as well!

    To be truthful, I can't help it either. It's in my nature to study, read and research a topic I want to know about. But, all the BS out there is difficult to cut through. Hence me posting desperately on this wonderful forum.

    I wasn't aware that the Leerburg site was primarily designed for working dogs. I spent a long time reading through their Q&A section, finding similiar cases to my pup. Each of those always typically were responded too by some of the more aggressive means. Every other link was towards a $60+ training video

    Next time I'm back in Perth I'll pop into Dymocks and get that book Chill Out Fido.

    Anyway, not trying to wear out my welcome here. So I apologise for the million and one questions. I do appreciate all the answers so far however

  5. #25
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    Pssst

    Nobody buys books from dymocks any more.

    What about this one.
    Leslie McDevitt: Control Unleashed

    or this one
    when pigs fly, success training impossible dogs by Jane Killion
    http://www.whenpigsflydogtraining.com

    Or
    Ruff love by Susan Garrett - which details the NILIF program - tho she doesn't call it that, and lots of attention and impulse control games to play with your dog. Ie make all your training drills into fun games...

    PS - just for you...

    http://rupertfawcettsdoggyblog.tumbl...758/oh-the-joy

    I'm sure it's possible to hypnotise a dog like a chook or a crocodile - except the dog wakes up when you stop...
    Last edited by Hyacinth; 12-07-2012 at 11:57 PM.

  6. #26
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    When Pigs Fly is on it's way to my house now. The name works for me! Haha

  7. #27
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    Let me know what you think of it?

    I got Control Unleashed the other day but am finding it very hard to read. All the agility stuff is distracting for me...

  8. #28
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    I am no expert on dog breeds or training, but these days there are so many so called "Experts" it's no wonder people are left totally confused.
    It's clear that some experts give advice on breeds they've never owned and some still have this 1950's attitude towards training breeds like GSD's, Rottweilers and Dobermanns.

    As I have owned all three breeds and have done obedience training with the above breed clubs, I can say you don't have to be superman to train them all you need is a pocket full of treats and a gentle check on the check chain.
    I always laugh when I hear the experts claim the above breeds are very Dominant and hard to control, when it's just some a very strong willed and stubborn. I wonder where some experts get their information from eg "If you allow your dog to sit on the lounge or bed, one day that dog will attack you" or "Feeding raw meat makes them vicious" or " Walk through the door first" or "eat first" or "avoid eye contact" this is my favorite " Dogs are Wolves in sheep's clothing".

    There was a Documentary not long ago where two 5wk old wolf cubs were taken and raised as normal pups would be, it was a disaster because when they grew larger their wild instincts kicked in and they had to be returned to the pack. Something else, dogs will follow you with their eyes Wolves don't and when they placed a treat under a cup and pointed to it a pup went strait to it but the wolf cub didn't and this happened every time.

    I don't take any notice of these "Experts" because if I did I would never know the joy of owning these wonderful breeds. Just one more thing, I have several books on dogs, one is about Rottweilers and in it it states "some Rottweilers are still employed by ranchers in Germany, the US and Australia" of cause the book is American. Another claims "Dobermanns are the most aggressive breed" so it just goes to show you can't believe every thing you read.
    Chloe & Zorro
    Rottweilers and German Shepherds are Family

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beloz View Post
    Let me know what you think of it?

    I got Control Unleashed the other day but am finding it very hard to read. All the agility stuff is distracting for me...
    Most certainly will Beloz

  10. #30

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    The best advice I can give you ' Ceowulf' is go find a dog training school - for want of a better word - that you like the look of - and join the classes and see how things go. I don't know if you have said which area you are from - but maybe if you do - someone on here maybe able to help you with a training school that they specifically like.

    Reading heaps of books or annoying poor ' Mr Google' all the time is fine - but this is not solving your problem of the best way to train your pup.

    The only way to find a way to train your pup - is to actually start doing stuff !

    You live with your pup - so by now you should know a fair bit about your pup - like which buttons you can push or how you can get your pup to do what you want at home.

    I don't follow any special methodology with training my pups - each one requires something a little bit different to still achieve - so I use a mixture - but then I am onto my fifth GSP ! We now live in harmony - most of the time - but he was a hard nut to crack initially. He was two years old when I got him and he is still sane as I hope I am !

    With any training - both you and your pup have to enjoy it !

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