Page 2 of 7 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 61

Thread: So many different methods of training - the two major competing theories

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    melbourne australia
    Posts
    3,082

    Default

    Favoured training methods are like assholes, everyones got one.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Wagin, WA
    Posts
    16

    Default

    Haha, so true bernie.

    Still, lots of good advice to glean from the replies. A combination of methods is ok. I like this, it seems natural to me that my dog respect me. I expect respect in the classroom (just as much as I give it) and I expect and give it at home as well. But hey, once we've got the ground rules down and they know that ultimately, I'm not such a bad boss, we can give and take a little without doing much harm.

    I really don't like the idea of those aggressive leash snaps. I'm pretty strong and work out a lot. Yet when Peppa gets fixated... well, I've already encountered that giving the leash a sharp jerk does nothing to snap her out of it. So unless I really pull it (which I'm not willing to do) I wont break her out of that fixation. I think using positive reinforcements and condition training will be a better method for me.

    You know what, I might just make kikopup my bible for now and see how that goes. Peppa responds well to that type of training.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Adelaide
    Posts
    12,581

    Default

    After I learned about better ways of training my dog than yank and crank - I went and got a "front attach" harness - having seen it on big and energetic weimerana. The difference in power and control from being clipped to the front of the dog's chest - vs clipped to the collar around its neck - was astonishing.

    The front attach harness - with a leash attach point in the middle of the dog's chest - gives you leverage like a wheel barrow or pulley gives you leverage. Extra power. So when the dog tries to pull there is a rotating force and the dog ends up facing you instead of where it was trying to go. And then you can do the attention games.

    And it sure beats having the dog launch across the road after a fleeing cat.

    the one I got was called "sensible front attach" but there are others. I recommended it to a rotti owner once, who said she could now roll a smoke (eek) and before she couldn't take her dog for a walk at all.

    But even a training harness - is best used in conjunction with the kikopup rewards for being where you want the dog to be. With my dog now - I stop walking if she starts pulling, and I stand there like stoopid, until she comes back next to me - and then we can start moving again. She's getting much faster at working out what she's got to do to get where she wants to go these days.

    Don't get a harness that clips at the back of the shoulders for walking - that's the sort you use for pulling sleds - or eskies full of beer across an oval. It's also quite a good car safety harness. But not good for out walking.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    745

    Default

    There are lots of great training tools out there now, head halters and the front attach harness as suggested above. Good fitting is important so take the dog with you when you buy it. Obedience clubs are also good for suggesting training techniques.

    If you are going to check a dog you have to make it count, someone that does it well generally never has to do it again. Those that don't just nag at the dog with no results. Which is why reward based training methods are so good, we can commit to that.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Geelong, Vic
    Posts
    871

    Default

    go read Leerburg Dog Training | 16,000 pages of dog training information, 500 free dog training streaming videos, free eBooks, podcasts, by Ed Frawley and Michael Ellis I dont use 'positive only' per say. I use what the dog needs, each dog is assessed on its temperament and behaviors and then treated accordingly. Call it what you like I dont follow fashions and BS, I fix dogs. Basically allow your dog a chance to win and be reinforced for the right thing a lot, try to avoid letting it fail as best you can and remember life is realistic. It's not all unicorns and rainbows, crap happens and a balanced life and treatment of your dog gives it coping skills. Most positive only dogs learn no coping skills as there is no lasting consequence to the behavior when they really stuff up or try something left wing. If you like a behavior, reinforce it. If you dont like it, either ignore it or apply a punisher (which in behavioral terms is not the same as what most people think - smack/correction on a chain etc) to extinguish the bad. If you lead your dog and build a good relationship life's easy.

    We are very behind in Australia when it comes to training and we're only slipping backwards. All this rubbish on the shelves which really are doing nothing but emptying wallets. Time and effort will get you a good dog, not a bag full of equipment. Look at most high end dog sports ... they have a couple of items, leash, collar, toy/treat. If you can train a police dog or sniffer dog with very little equipment why does your average bog standard pet dog need so much? It doesnt.

    Thats the way it has always been. Thats how it will work the best forever. Everything else is just marketing.

  6. #16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nekhbet View Post
    go read Leerburg Dog Training | 16,000 pages of dog training information, 500 free dog training streaming videos, free eBooks, podcasts, by Ed Frawley and Michael Ellis I dont use 'positive only' per say. I use what the dog needs, each dog is assessed on its temperament and behaviors and then treated accordingly. Call it what you like I dont follow fashions and BS, I fix dogs. Basically allow your dog a chance to win and be reinforced for the right thing a lot, try to avoid letting it fail as best you can and remember life is realistic. It's not all unicorns and rainbows, crap happens and a balanced life and treatment of your dog gives it coping skills. Most positive only dogs learn no coping skills as there is no lasting consequence to the behavior when they really stuff up or try something left wing. If you like a behavior, reinforce it. If you dont like it, either ignore it or apply a punisher (which in behavioral terms is not the same as what most people think - smack/correction on a chain etc) to extinguish the bad. If you lead your dog and build a good relationship life's easy.

    We are very behind in Australia when it comes to training and we're only slipping backwards. All this rubbish on the shelves which really are doing nothing but emptying wallets. Time and effort will get you a good dog, not a bag full of equipment. Look at most high end dog sports ... they have a couple of items, leash, collar, toy/treat. If you can train a police dog or sniffer dog with very little equipment why does your average bog standard pet dog need so much? It doesnt.

    Thats the way it has always been. Thats how it will work the best forever. Everything else is just marketing.

    Post of the year. +++1 agree

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Wagin, WA
    Posts
    16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nekhbet View Post
    go read Leerburg Dog Training | 16,000 pages of dog training information, 500 free dog training streaming videos, free eBooks, podcasts, by Ed Frawley and Michael Ellis I dont use 'positive only' per say. I use what the dog needs, each dog is assessed on its temperament and behaviors and then treated accordingly. Call it what you like I dont follow fashions and BS, I fix dogs. Basically allow your dog a chance to win and be reinforced for the right thing a lot, try to avoid letting it fail as best you can and remember life is realistic. It's not all unicorns and rainbows, crap happens and a balanced life and treatment of your dog gives it coping skills. Most positive only dogs learn no coping skills as there is no lasting consequence to the behavior when they really stuff up or try something left wing. If you like a behavior, reinforce it. If you dont like it, either ignore it or apply a punisher (which in behavioral terms is not the same as what most people think - smack/correction on a chain etc) to extinguish the bad. If you lead your dog and build a good relationship life's easy.

    We are very behind in Australia when it comes to training and we're only slipping backwards. All this rubbish on the shelves which really are doing nothing but emptying wallets. Time and effort will get you a good dog, not a bag full of equipment. Look at most high end dog sports ... they have a couple of items, leash, collar, toy/treat. If you can train a police dog or sniffer dog with very little equipment why does your average bog standard pet dog need so much? It doesnt.

    Thats the way it has always been. Thats how it will work the best forever. Everything else is just marketing.
    This is sort of the reason why I posted this Nek. I've just spent an hour reading Leerburg (thanks for the link!) and her ideas are completely contradictory to so many other trainers. She recommends using prong collars, shock collars and is very much in favour of the dominance approach.

    My aunt has had 4 or 5 beautfiful dobermans in the last 20 odd years. They were always wonderful animals, she always used a military style approach to training with her trainers. She also recommends citronella collars, or shock collars if the behaviour doesn't improve.

    Honestly guys, this is doing my head in. I'm worried that because I'm reading and watching so many conflicting approachs that my trainer with Peppa will be inconsistent as well.

    Can I paint a simple scenario for you ladies and gents? I'm curious as to how you would handle it:

    I take Peppa in the car to my school oval for a job/walk/training every morning. This morning as we were going through the routine there was a dog about 80m away walking with her owner on the other side of the fence. Peppa instantly went on the aggressive and started barking at the dog.

    Ok, so what do I do:
    a) Get her attention (with difficulty) by running backwards calling "Come!" in a stupid happy voice - I tried this, then tried leading back a bit closer to the dog with a treat to keep her distracted by she just went back to barking.

    b) Sternly get her attention (how would you recommend it? - the trainer I've been speaking too recommended grabber her by the collar, holding her forepaws off the ground a bit, looking into her face and saying "sush sush sush sush" until she calmed down.

    c) Sternly jerk the leash in a sharp mostion and say "No!" to really startle her out of it.

    I've not done C yet, nor B. A seems to only work for as long as she is utterly focused on me. As soon as I stop the stimulus she goes back to focusing on the dog.

    Meep.

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    melbourne australia
    Posts
    3,082

    Default

    Ceowolf. Leerburg are service dog trainers. These dogs are war dogs, attack dogs, scent detection dogs, trackers, bomb disposal, search and rescue etc. Not your average pet eh?
    The harsher training methods.....These dogs are extreemly hard headed, with a lot of nerve. Selected for the high drive. Not pets.

    How i would handle the above situ, is stay just within drive initiation. So dog is interested, but not reacting. Say looking, dont get too close so dog goes into peak drive, which seems to be what is happening here. You are too close!
    Get a mate with a dog, and practice this.

    I would never raise my voice, or shove my face in a dogs face that is being aggressive. To a dog this is aggression. Instead i would go look up calming signals, and use that. Plenty of videos on youtube to watch. Its very gentle, and works by changing the emotions of the dog, which results in different behavioural outcomes.

    I have had a very aggressive, very large, dog/dog aggressive rottie, who could not go out when i first got him till i got control.
    This is how i did it, calming signals, paying to go to a dog training class, and walking 50meters away from the class. As that's as close as i could get, without the dog getting hyper and silly.
    By week 4, he was sitting at the end of the line, peacefully.
    this dog never really liked other dogs his entire life. But he became under my control, easy to walk in public.

    I like option A, with additions

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    4,291

    Default

    I have done A. Not for aggressive, but for over-excited behaviour, which is very similar. And to prevent chasing too.
    This is not a quick fix, though I got results much faster than i had expected. You are re-conditioning this dog's brain and that takes repetition.

    If you can get him to focus on you, you have won half the battle. You are teaching him that calmly focusing on you when there is another dog around is a pleasant experience and after however many repetitions, he will want to repeat it without prompting.

    You may always need a cue to get him to do this, but there is a high likelihood that he may just start ignoring the other dogs completely.

    Verbal or physical corrections may work in some situations. But I reckon in a high arousal situation like this, the effect would be greatly reduced. With B, I also think the link between the aggressive response/the other dog and your reaction would be lost on the dog. Ideally, you want the dog to still be aware of the other dog and get him to the point where he can alter his response himself. So if you are going to chose for a correction, I think C has a higher chance of having some effect than B.

    If you're into reading books really, read that Chill Out Fido book. I won't keep going on about it, but I wrote a review on it recently. It is the kind of book that gives a nice insight in how and why techniques like A can work and how to train them.

    PS: (Sorry, but I do find this a very interesting topic ) With method A, I found it easier to use a cue (Look at that or Who's that) and I also used a clicker to mark the moment the dog calmly looked at the distraction and used an almost constant flow of high value treats. This made her automatically look from the distraction back at me after I said the cue. And don't be stingy with treats. My dog easily went through 100-150gr of cooked liver or similar a day when we were training. She got to the point were the mere sight of the clicker and treat bag would make her pay attention to me and calm right down. If your dog starts barking when you move closer, you didn't stay below threshold long enough or you approached too fast. Even if you just decrease the distance by 1 metre in your session, it's a win. But if the dog gets aroused again, you have to start again at a greater distance. It seems like a wishy-washy method, but I've tried it and it really can work very well and there's some solid science behind it too. Which can definitely not be said for method B.
    Last edited by Beloz; 12-07-2012 at 09:05 AM.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Geelong, Vic
    Posts
    871

    Default

    I gave you leerburg to read because there was some bare bones basic explanations of dog behavior in an accessable form. No way would Ed ever tell you to put a prong or shock collar on you average pet dog... well most of them lol

    Bernie, the leerburg website does have a lot of useful information for pet owners as well, unfortunately most people wade straight into the working dog section of the articles. There is also Michael Ellis on youtube. Saying that a dog is a dog, working or pet their brains all work in the same manner.

    If your dog is not obedient put it on a long line. This way you limit mistakes and you can control the animals behavior until it proves it will willingly turn to you and want to listen.

    how would you recommend it? - the trainer I've been speaking too recommended grabber her by the collar, holding her forepaws off the ground a bit, looking into her face and saying "sush sush sush sush" until she calmed down.
    Are you serious ... these people actually charge for their advice?

    How do you get a dogs attention - remove the stimulus catching their eye out of range OR be more interesting and reward focus. Basically move the dog further, reward every time it looks at you with pats/treat/toy

    I think too you're too caught up in everything. Stop reading the internet you're confused and really you didnt read leerburg properly either so go play with the dog more time with the dog, less time on the internet I think is the best remedy for all of this lol

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •