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Thread: Registered Purebreds in Decline

  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by puggerup View Post
    Pet shops.. well they should be banned. Spur of the moment dog purchasing, puppy mills, health issues...gahhhh... and to think I had no idea of any of this till I was harshly and rudely "informed" at DOL.
    From a purely a consumer's point of view, most people who look for their first dog aren't necessarily aware that breeders exist, simply because breeders don't have "store front" visibility in local shopping centers. The generalised consumer mentality today is you go to a shopping center (hub) to buy something (or even order it off the internet).

    Several years ago when I got my first girl, I went to a pet store looking for a dog ... Actually I went to quite a few pet stores looking for a Miniature Pinscher and when I couldn't find one I Googled. That's when I discovered breeders, but the only reason ended up purchasing from a breeder was because only they had the type of dog I wanted. At that point in time if the pet store could have "ordered it in" I would have gone with the consumer-oriented, cookie-cutter pet store!

    Back then as a first time, uneducated "pet consumer" I was a bit daunted by the prospect of visiting a breeder. Nearly all the breeders I contacted were about 1 hours drive away from where I lived. The breeders I did manage to make appointments with didn't seem all that "professional" as they tended to be [much] older women from a baby-boomer era who had dogs is every room of their creaky old houses ... The dog's "cat lady" equivalent always pops into my head when I remember back.

    I even considered a Chuihuahua as my second dog but was a little freaked out when I saw a Chihuahua/German Shepard cross at a breeder's house. A breeder "accident" is was told laughingly, but seeing a GSD head on a stumpy little body at ground level was ... weird like something out of the Twilight Zone.

    Breeder location and presentation aside, pet store "pure breed" prices were on par with that a breeder's price. $1,200 for a dog from a breeder a few suburbs away, or $1,100 for a dog from a pet store chain that you see every weekend. I'm pretty sure most people, look at the clean, well presented franchise pet store front that offers a warranty and think ... "Looks good enough".

    I'm wondering if there have there been any consolidated advertising/education campaigns in the mainstream media to promote the benefits of a breeder (certs, quality, health, reputation)? I'm pretty sure if I had seen ads on TV back then promoting registered breeders as the "sensible" and reliable alternative to find a new dog I would have thought "breeder 1st" and "pet store/puppy farm 2nd".

    Last edited by pet-owner; 06-23-2009 at 06:44 AM.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by leo01 View Post
    This is my point, how can we expect people (sociaty as a whole, the everyday pet owner, the average family) to make better choices, when they dont know and havent yet been fully made aware of and been properly educated on such matters? The guy at the pet shop spruiked to myself and OH at the time how all their puppys come from loving homes, are vet checked, wormed, well taken care of and raised in caring environments yada yada yada, i kid you not! We sponged it up as we held this gergeous pup in our arms, and who could have said there was anything wrong with that at the time... its really not so black and white in my eyes, the propblem is HUGE, and at the end of the day their is always going to be someone seeing just $$ and nothing for the animals, how do you get around that and touch the everyday person and ask better before the money sniffeling BYB or pet shop owner get to them first?





    I agree, I had never heard of BYB or realised just how awful pet shop animals have it untill I started reading up on it.

    It is a subject that the average person knows little about, and there should be much more education out there so people can make an informed choice.
    There should be far tougher penalties for puppy farms, as it is at the moment they shut down many to just re open becuase of the way the law stands.

    Definatel;y more education is needed.
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  3. #13
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    Some fabulous responses and knowledge...but also a few poorly thought out generalisations about breeders being bandied about.

    I acknowledge that breeders are not gods. In fact, I have a huge love hate relationship with Pug breeders because I believe there are too many that are not doing the right things...and the don't even get me started on the 'education lacking' Pug clubs that exist in Australia!

    However, breeders overall are breeding for a type. They are breeding to produce a dog that has a certain set of characteristics and health standards. They are bound by a code of ethics, they have peers who they can glean knowledge from and they not only have the love of their dogs in mind, but just as importantly, the love of their breed in mind and the longevity of that breed.

    Back yard breeders have no thoughts of breeding a dog to fit a 'type' nor would the majority of them understand or even look into the health and genetics of the dogs they breed. One prime example was a recent comment made here where the byb said the Vet said they were 'healthy' and therefore fine to breed. So, the Vet knew what the recessive and dominant genes were of both parents? The Vet knew what the conformation of that breed was?

    There are registered breeders who keep their dogs in kennels. There are bybs who keep their dogs in kennels. One is not exclusive to the other. A registered breeder however answers to the registered body they are with and local laws. A byb answers to themselves and local laws. Which do you think is more likely to cut corners?

    If all registered breeders become extinct, the breeds that we know and love will also rapidly change. Crosses upon crosses, and poorly bred with poorly bred will see Pugs become something else, GSD's something else, Staffies, Deerhounds, Danes and Border Collies....all of our beautiful breeds that we love will fade out and be replaced with a mish mash of dogs over time.

    I agree 100% percent with the comments about education and public knowledge. The ANKC need to step up to the plate and breeders need to become more active in demonstrating to the public the importance of their hobbies.

    One breed is not neccessarily better than the other, nor is any cross breed neccessarily better than any other pure or cross...but the way in which canine breeding is conducted is far superior in an infinite number of ways in the registered breeding world than the byber or designer breeder.

    On the subject of pet shops, I am in two minds and this is something I have never settled within myself. In the US and UK where puppy farms run rife, pet shops are largely resourced with animals that have had a deplorable and inhumane start to the world and the poor parents of those infant animals live a life of misery and cruelty. In Australia, I am convinced this is not predominantly the case, regardless of what people claim. I am also convinced that rather than outlawing pet shops, we should concentrate of upping the ante on their accountability and selling process, and their animal management processes. We should also be upping the ante on the byber and the registered breeder (and in the instances where it is puppy farmers) who are the suppliers to these stores.

    A pet shop is visible to the public at all times. They have checks conducted on them and they are answerable to several laws, statutes and codes. At anytime an inspection can be done. The byber and registered breeder are not bound by inspections or the same rigorous laws. Which one do you think is more likely to cut corners?

    When it comes to 'impulse' buying, do you think this doesn't occur in rescue? The impulse is "I need to save this poor little dog." Rescues advertise the terrible abuse and plight of many of their animals...why? To garner interest in them so they can be re-homed, the more calls and emails, the more dogs re-homed. This is an emotional selling tool, not dissimilar to what pet shops use. Think about it.

    Do you really think that people who purchase a puppy from a breeder have all thought long and hard about it before they contact a breeder who is advertising their puppies? Many purebred puppies are purchased on impulse.

    I believe our dogs need and deserve more than what they are currently getting but we should be pushing for sensible and logical laws and processes to ensure that the dog is, in the end, the one that is thought of and the one that benefits.

    I consider myself and independant thinker and I do not subscribe to any theories but my own. Free thinking is a wonderful thing.
    Last edited by Anne; 06-23-2009 at 07:53 AM.
    A pessimist sees the glass as half empty;
    An optimist sees the glass as half full;
    A realist just finishes the damn thing and refills it.

  4. #14

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    I am a purebred dog nut yes. But that doesn't mean I don't love mixed breeds as well.

    I think it's terrible that registered purebreds are currently in decline, but this has happened to many many breeds over the years as society goes through different stages. They are usually kept alive by dedicated folks, in spite of various fashionable trends and other factors.

    One of the hardest things is that being a registered breeder does not necessarily mean the best - which is a sad state of affairs. Unfortunately dog breeding, both registered and not - can be seen as a business, which is even sadder.

    I have to say though, with the level of information available these days, people saying "we didn't know any better" is starting to run out of steam. Information is more accessible than ever, and anyone who wants to know something can find it out pretty quickly.

    Most people could do with educating about what animal ownership means. My 12 year old daughter is often shocked and disgusted by other children's lack of knowledge and bizarre ideas about animal care and welfare - but it is so often regurgitated nonsense that is coming from parents etc. How do you break the cycle?

    People need educating - this is for certain. But there is resistance with this, there are lots of people out there who don't want to be educated. They don't want to know that how thehir parents/grandparents kept, bred or worked with dogs wasn't ideal. They don't want to accept that they can be adult and not really have a clue about things they feel they are knowledgeable about.

    I think welfare or rescue groups could start with thinkgs like school visits and talks - I think animals are a great drawcard for kids - and messages sink in better when they are interested. I'm trying to help my daughter organise this at her high school. But time and resources are an issue for so many.

    Buying pets for some is like smoking - they know there are bigger issues at stake than the here and now - but they really don't want to think about that, they just want to fulfill a need they have RIGHT NOW.

  5. #15
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    I don't have any facts and figures in front of me Anne, but I believe pedigree dog ownership was probably at it's height during the 1970's. Neglected Afghans, Bassets, Irish Setters, OES, Samoyeds, Great Danes, Dobes and Labs were as common in pounds and shelters as Staffy and Cattle dog crosses are today. I can remember euthing 6 Irish Setters one after the other, ranging from a 5 month old pup to a 12 year old senior. No one wanted them. There were another 7 still in the kennels. I still have some of the old euth records from those days. Often the purebreds outweighed the crosses on death row.

    During the late seventies and especially in the 80's it became fashionable to own a crossbred dog. Pedigree dogs went out of fashion with the trendies and some of the breeds that were almost ruined by backyarders were able to recover when they were no longer a fashion statement.

    After a while people were no longer satisfied with good old fashioned Kelpie crosses and Lab mixtures so they started creating so called designer dogs, Oodles and Doodles and Zoodles. Cutsey fluffy little beasties with coats that were a nightmare to groom but looked very tempting in a pet shop window. And we all know the end of that story.

    The average consumer has an "I want it now" mentality. They can't be bothered doing their homework, finding breeders and then "horror of horrors" being put on a waiting list. It's so much easier to select a puppy (often totally unsuitable) from a pet shop window. You pay your money and take your pick. No one asks if you have fences, work during the day, understand about desexing and training and all that boring stuff. They just sell you a pup and usually talk you into buying a whole lot of other stuff you don't really need.

    On the other hand a lot of people feel the only dog they SHOULD have is an unwanted one. Breed snobbery in reverse if you like. It's sort of a guilt thing. If you buy a pedigree dog a crossbred will die. Do you want that death on your conscience? So the kind hearted soul who really just wanted a wee Cavalier to sit on her lap is talked into adopting instead and often comes away from the shelter with a totally unsuitable dog. She has been emotionally blackmailed into saving a life. Often both dog and owner are miserable. Most adoption stories have happy endings but believe me I have seen the other side often enough to know the reverse happens more than it should.

    I think the ANKC is also to blame. It's time they improved their image. A lot of people see pedigree dogs and the show world as snobby. Nothing could be further from the truth. At the average dog show factory workers and old age pensioners rub shoulders with doctors and business executives. When the VCA was still the KCC they, along with some of the breed clubs, used to run ads in the paper every week telling people of the advantages of owning a registered pedigree dog and offering contact numbers to learn more. They no longer bother.

    Some very interesting comments have been made and I think you might just have the answer to your question, Anne.

    Puggerup has dealt with one Pug breeder and tars all others with the same brush. In my own experiece most Pug people treat their show dogs as family pets. I certainly did. My show dogs stayed with me from birth to old age and died in my arms. One of the girls I bred was the top winning black in the country at one time but she still slept on my bed at night and went galloping through the bush hunting rabbits with my other Pugs. Re your Pug being hand shy. This may be due to how you approached him. Think of a Pug's eyes and the shape of their face. Don't move your hand over the face from the front to pat the head. Nature has made Pugs instinctively protective of their eyes.

    I'd better start keeping a list of people Pet-Owner doesn't like. Gays and people over the age of 50 so far. Thats my son and now me. I'm waiting to see who comes next.

    Council restrictions on the number of dogs you are allowed to keep also affects pedigree breeders. When a dog reaches retirement age a breeder is left with the choice of either rehoming the oldie and running on a youngster or keeping the oldie. Many keep their oldies (as I did) so eventually have nothing left to show or breed from. Sadly many good bloodlines are lost this way.

    I would like to see a total ban on the selling of live animals in shops. If laws were also passed that no could sell a dog or puppy unless they were a registered breeder or a recognised animal shelter or breed rescue this would eliminate the backyarders and go a long way towards reducing the number of unwanteds.

    This "[much] older women from a baby-boomer era" minus the "dogs is every room of their creaky old houses" has been fighting for the above since 1970. I would like to see the breeding of all dogs, pedigree and crossbred greatly reduced. As education doesn't seem to work, perhaps legislation is the only answer.

  6. #16
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    Here Here Deerhound, couldn't have said it better myself.

    I am the proud mum to 2 labby crosses, and now a pedigree GSD. I love them all equally. Molly came from a shelter, Jack was a pressie for Molly and Myself from Brett, who came from someone who's labby was "accidentally" gotten to by the dog next door, when it came to getting Mia, I called a lot of different breeders, spoke to alot of different people, until I found the breeder that matched my standards of how she treats her dogs etc. I then waited close on 2 months for her.

    My Fiancee is one of those who has complete rose colored glasses when it comes to how much work it takes to be a good dog parent. He's been brought up with the "dogs don't come inside, they eat Pal and table scraps, they rarely go to the vet" type of mindset. I am slowly opening his mind. OUR dogs sleep beside our bed (and from 5am, when Brett leaves for work until I get up, they sleep ON the bed haha) , eat a very good quality food, I'm prolly a lil over the top when it comes to vet care, as, as soon as I see a problem, they're booked in to get it checked.

    We spend our Friday nights at the dog swimming pool, so we can try to reduce the amount of hip problems Jack will have when he's older (simply from his size), Mia is about to start 2 different puppy groups, so she is very well socialised. Wednesday nights Jack and Molly go to Obedience school, and Mia goes on a Sunday morning. I'm not trying to blow my own horn here, this is simply the way I believe my babies should be looked after.

    Unfortunately, not everyone thinks this way. I've lost count of how many people I have known over the years who had no clue about what animal ownership means. For example, one (now ex) friend of mine was taking her cat to the vet because he'd come home with an absess on his head (again) from fighting. She called me up while she was there, coz they were trying to "MAKE" her desex him. I told her I agreed with the vet, and it was a good idea for Harry to be desexed... She was horrified, but in the end followed my advice (thankfully!). Why is desexing of animals who aren't to be shown or bred with (and I mean from registered and responsible breeders) such a foreign idea for most people?

    Sorry for the long post and rant guys, this is just one issue that really irk's me. Maybe we should open up some kind of an education club... put information out there somehow... it just seems like such a HUGE job.

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nattylou View Post
    I am a purebred dog nut yes. But that doesn't mean I don't love mixed breeds as well.

    I think it's terrible that registered purebreds are currently in decline, but this has happened to many many breeds over the years as society goes through different stages. They are usually kept alive by dedicated folks, in spite of various fashionable trends and other factors.

    One of the hardest things is that being a registered breeder does not necessarily mean the best - which is a sad state of affairs. Unfortunately dog breeding, both registered and not - can be seen as a business, which is even sadder.

    I have to say though, with the level of information available these days, people saying "we didn't know any better" is starting to run out of steam. Information is more accessible than ever, and anyone who wants to know something can find it out pretty quickly.

    Most people could do with educating about what animal ownership means. My 12 year old daughter is often shocked and disgusted by other children's lack of knowledge and bizarre ideas about animal care and welfare - but it is so often regurgitated nonsense that is coming from parents etc. How do you break the cycle?

    People need educating - this is for certain. But there is resistance with this, there are lots of people out there who don't want to be educated. They don't want to know that how thehir parents/grandparents kept, bred or worked with dogs wasn't ideal. They don't want to accept that they can be adult and not really have a clue about things they feel they are knowledgeable about.

    I think welfare or rescue groups could start with thinkgs like school visits and talks - I think animals are a great drawcard for kids - and messages sink in better when they are interested. I'm trying to help my daughter organise this at her high school. But time and resources are an issue for so many.

    Buying pets for some is like smoking - they know there are bigger issues at stake than the here and now - but they really don't want to think about that, they just want to fulfill a need they have RIGHT NOW.
    I agree Nattylou

    1.Reasearch etc is easier now then ever, and this is always my argument with people, but it is only in the last few years that everyone has managed to have access to the world-wide-web.

    2.And yes! You can't help those who don't want to be helped. Perfect example is the Maltesex I talked about before(above). All sorts of suggestions, websites,printed out info. etc. all ignored. And that's just one example.

    3. I always thought that there should be some sort of information session on pet-ownership, animal welfare,puppy farms etc. in schools. I remember having ones on drink-driving/ speeding, they used shock-tactics. It worked! in the way that no one forgot the grotesque images in a hurry.

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoodiesGirl View Post
    Here Here Deerhound, couldn't have said it better myself.

    I am the proud mum to 2 labby crosses, and now a pedigree GSD. I love them all equally. Molly came from a shelter, Jack was a pressie for Molly and Myself from Brett, who came from someone who's labby was "accidentally" gotten to by the dog next door, when it came to getting Mia, I called a lot of different breeders, spoke to alot of different people, until I found the breeder that matched my standards of how she treats her dogs etc. I then waited close on 2 months for her.

    My Fiancee is one of those who has complete rose colored glasses when it comes to how much work it takes to be a good dog parent. He's been brought up with the "dogs don't come inside, they eat Pal and table scraps, they rarely go to the vet" type of mindset. I am slowly opening his mind. OUR dogs sleep beside our bed (and from 5am, when Brett leaves for work until I get up, they sleep ON the bed haha) , eat a very good quality food, I'm prolly a lil over the top when it comes to vet care, as, as soon as I see a problem, they're booked in to get it checked.

    We spend our Friday nights at the dog swimming pool, so we can try to reduce the amount of hip problems Jack will have when he's older (simply from his size), Mia is about to start 2 different puppy groups, so she is very well socialised. Wednesday nights Jack and Molly go to Obedience school, and Mia goes on a Sunday morning. I'm not trying to blow my own horn here, this is simply the way I believe my babies should be looked after.

    Unfortunately, not everyone thinks this way. I've lost count of how many people I have known over the years who had no clue about what animal ownership means. For example, one (now ex) friend of mine was taking her cat to the vet because he'd come home with an absess on his head (again) from fighting. She called me up while she was there, coz they were trying to "MAKE" her desex him. I told her I agreed with the vet, and it was a good idea for Harry to be desexed... She was horrified, but in the end followed my advice (thankfully!). Why is desexing of animals who aren't to be shown or bred with (and I mean from registered and responsible breeders) such a foreign idea for most people?

    Sorry for the long post and rant guys, this is just one issue that really irk's me. Maybe we should open up some kind of an education club... put information out there somehow... it just seems like such a HUGE job.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deerhound View Post
    I don't have any facts and figures in front of me Anne, but I believe pedigree dog ownership was probably at it's height during the 1970's. Neglected Afghans, Bassets, Irish Setters, OES, Samoyeds, Great Danes, Dobes and Labs were as common in pounds and shelters as Staffy and Cattle dog crosses are today. I can remember euthing 6 Irish Setters one after the other, ranging from a 5 month old pup to a 12 year old senior. No one wanted them. There were another 7 still in the kennels. I still have some of the old euth records from those days. Often the purebreds outweighed the crosses on death row.

    During the late seventies and especially in the 80's it became fashionable to own a crossbred dog. Pedigree dogs went out of fashion with the trendies and some of the breeds that were almost ruined by backyarders were able to recover when they were no longer a fashion statement.

    After a while people were no longer satisfied with good old fashioned Kelpie crosses and Lab mixtures so they started creating so called designer dogs, Oodles and Doodles and Zoodles. Cutsey fluffy little beasties with coats that were a nightmare to groom but looked very tempting in a pet shop window. And we all know the end of that story.

    The average consumer has an "I want it now" mentality. They can't be bothered doing their homework, finding breeders and then "horror of horrors" being put on a waiting list. It's so much easier to select a puppy (often totally unsuitable) from a pet shop window. You pay your money and take your pick. No one asks if you have fences, work during the day, understand about desexing and training and all that boring stuff. They just sell you a pup and usually talk you into buying a whole lot of other stuff you don't really need.

    On the other hand a lot of people feel the only dog they SHOULD have is an unwanted one. Breed snobbery in reverse if you like. It's sort of a guilt thing. If you buy a pedigree dog a crossbred will die. Do you want that death on your conscience? So the kind hearted soul who really just wanted a wee Cavalier to sit on her lap is talked into adopting instead and often comes away from the shelter with a totally unsuitable dog. She has been emotionally blackmailed into saving a life. Often both dog and owner are miserable. Most adoption stories have happy endings but believe me I have seen the other side often enough to know the reverse happens more than it should.

    I think the ANKC is also to blame. It's time they improved their image. A lot of people see pedigree dogs and the show world as snobby. Nothing could be further from the truth. At the average dog show factory workers and old age pensioners rub shoulders with doctors and business executives. When the VCA was still the KCC they, along with some of the breed clubs, used to run ads in the paper every week telling people of the advantages of owning a registered pedigree dog and offering contact numbers to learn more. They no longer bother.

    Some very interesting comments have been made and I think you might just have the answer to your question, Anne.

    Puggerup has dealt with one Pug breeder and tars all others with the same brush. In my own experiece most Pug people treat their show dogs as family pets. I certainly did. My show dogs stayed with me from birth to old age and died in my arms. One of the girls I bred was the top winning black in the country at one time but she still slept on my bed at night and went galloping through the bush hunting rabbits with my other Pugs. Re your Pug being hand shy. This may be due to how you approached him. Think of a Pug's eyes and the shape of their face. Don't move your hand over the face from the front to pat the head. Nature has made Pugs instinctively protective of their eyes.

    I'd better start keeping a list of people Pet-Owner doesn't like. Gays and people over the age of 50 so far. Thats my son and now me. I'm waiting to see who comes next.

    Council restrictions on the number of dogs you are allowed to keep also affects pedigree breeders. When a dog reaches retirement age a breeder is left with the choice of either rehoming the oldie and running on a youngster or keeping the oldie. Many keep their oldies (as I did) so eventually have nothing left to show or breed from. Sadly many good bloodlines are lost this way.

    I would like to see a total ban on the selling of live animals in shops. If laws were also passed that no could sell a dog or puppy unless they were a registered breeder or a recognised animal shelter or breed rescue this would eliminate the backyarders and go a long way towards reducing the number of unwanteds.

    This "[much] older women from a baby-boomer era" minus the "dogs is every room of their creaky old houses" has been fighting for the above since 1970. I would like to see the breeding of all dogs, pedigree and crossbred greatly reduced. As education doesn't seem to work, perhaps legislation is the only answer.
    OHHHHHHHHHHH How do you quote section only?

    I would also like to see a total ban on sales of live animals.
    Instead have reg. breeder info, posters, animal welfare articles, pet ownership info kits,diff breed info etc.

    And 'breed snobbery in reverse" is a really good point. Alot of people rescue the wrong dog=out of guilt. I looked at heaps of rescues at the end of last year before I found Lola. Felt sooo guilty about leaving all those sad faces and not walking out with one. Couldn't stop thinking about them at night. I think if I wasn't as informed or a first time dog owner I would have given in....

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoodiesGirl View Post
    Maybe we should open up some kind of an education club... put information out there somehow... it just seems like such a HUGE job.
    Placing an article in the paper (few pages) would be great for example. Lots of people would read it. I'm just not sure if we'd go slamming BYBs can they sue? Because, tehnically, they are legal.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magdalena View Post
    OHHHHHHHHHHH How do you quote section only?

    When you quote, the text you want to appear as quoted needs to be between an opening and closing quote command.

    To show you, I will type it with one incorrect symbol so that you will see the actual command... if I do it right it will quote the blank space in between.

    [quote] [//quote]

    Just remove one slash though.

    The first command with the word 'quote' inside square brackets is typed at the beginning of the text and the second command with the slash and the word 'quote' inside square brackets should be at the end of the text you want to quote.

    So, when breaking up lots of quotes, just ensure that you have the opening command and the closing command at the beginning and end of each paragraph or group of text that you are quoting each time.

    When you click 'quote' on your reply post, it will also include details of who you are quoting in the first opening quote command.

    I hope this makes sense??
    A pessimist sees the glass as half empty;
    An optimist sees the glass as half full;
    A realist just finishes the damn thing and refills it.

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