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Thread: The norm - what do you say when nothing goes wrong (byb)?

  1. #11
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    I think that the behaviour of breeding=money is a very highly reinforced behaviour.
    I doubt anything you can say/do, will counter such a reinforcement ratio

    I have no idea what the solution is. Morals, ethics etc are very hard to teach an adult.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beloz View Post
    I find that a tough scenario... I don't understand why people would breed from an ordinary crossbreed either. I love my bitsas, but I'd never get tempted. But she breeds on demand, so the argument that it affects dogs on death row is kind of a mute one.
    Not really, how many will end up in the pound once these people are over the cute puppy stage and realise they have a crazy kelpie x lab on their hands.

    There is no psychiatrist in the world like a puppy licking your face.

  3. #13
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    Yeah, but that could happen when they buy a purebred too. Or get a pup from the shelter. People just suck. lol

  4. #14
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    Well I think it's very sad and I have to ask why. There are so many labxkelpie mixes out in pounds I have to ask why?

    So she found good homes and made money, or so she thinks, as a registered breeder who has a litter about every two years I know that finding good homes is not as easy as one thinks, maybe her standards are lower than mine.

    Did she supply a puppy pack, a 6 week free puppy insurance, a food starter pack, did she properly worm the bitch and then all puppies every two weeks, did she microchip and vaccinate properly, did her puppies go with a health check? If they didn't and since she obviously doesn't spend large amounts of money on show entries, travel and accommodation to attend shows, stud fees etc then yes she is likely to have made money.

    I hope that she is prepared to take one of her pups back at any time in its lifetime should it's owner no longer be able to keep it, I hope she educated her new owners on the benefits of desexing and at what age for the breed. And if she does plan to do this again I hope the whelping goes well again for the bitches sake.

    I've never had a bitch have whelping difficulties, but I'm not stupid enough to think it's not a possibility.
    Last edited by MAC; 11-09-2012 at 09:25 AM.

  5. #15

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    I would go to the shelter/pound/rescue web/facebook pages from your area and show her how many dogs are in the shelters waiting for new homes (for months or years) or waiting to die. Show her the statistics on how many dogs/cats in places like the RSPCA, the Dogs Home etc get killed every year compared to how many get rehomed.

    And then ask her how sure is she that those 7 puppies (or the 7 that she is likely to breed to follow that lot) are not going to end up in the shelter. On top of that at least one of those owners she sold to are likely to breed also (and so on and so forth). So she has just taken part in the giant cycle that means millions upon millions of dogs die every year.

    If she gives 2 flips about her dogs puppies and what happens to them, or cares about dogs in general, maybe that will make her reconsider.

    If not, then there isn't much you can do and one day maybe her dog wont whelp so well and it will cost her a fortune and she will stop.

  6. #16
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    Ask her if the two Lab x Kelpies that show up occasionally at my park are hers. Both of them were from the pound - at around 8 months old. Ballistic dogs.

    And does she understand the long term problems and expenses that might be involved if they have hip problems? Does she warn her buyers about this?

    And this. Ian Dunbar sums it up fairly well - and the lost dogs episode of "don't blame the dog".
    http://www.dogstardaily.com/video-cc.../field_video_0

    ps - about a thousand of them listed on pet rescue (do a site search) - so they're frequently abandoned. The lucky ones that are still friendly might get a second shot but a thousand? - some are going to die.
    http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&q=la...trescue.com.au

    So - when she's found homes for all the ones on rescue - then I think she can breed again.
    Last edited by Hyacinth; 11-09-2012 at 03:13 PM.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by 99bottles View Post
    Well I know a lot of people who breed and so far the only ones that I have seen have any problems (except of course for the stories posted on these forums) are those with purebreeds. I am not anti-cross breed, but I do believe you need to have a purpose and conduct both health and temperament/work ability tests before breeding any dogs. But recently one of the ladies I work with has started breeding her Kelpie. Now this is a dog that she rescued somehow undesexed, and since decided to breed it to a friends' labrador cross. There have been no issues, her kelpie conceived easily, gave birth naturally at home to 7 puppies, raised them all without help and all puppies survived and seemed healthy. She sold them all for a good price and even had people fighting over the puppies (she received lots of calls and emails daily from people wanting one). She was somewhat choosey about the homes, made sure the people were told that Kelpies are an active dog but then, let the pups go at 6-7 weeks because they were becoming a handful and expensive to feed.

    The outcome? She has made a large profit and feels good about what she has done - the puppies do seem to have gone to good homes. Now she is considering doing it again just because they have so many other people still wanting puppies. I don't even know what to say. The truth is for most people breeding two healthy crossbreed dogs, the pups will be healthy and the process won't require vet intervention - I see it all the time. When the person has homes lined up and is making a fair profit from having litters with her well-loved family dog (so not a puppy mill or anything) well where do you even begin?
    Trouble is health issues often turn up later. A friend of mine has had no luck with pups bought this way. She euthanaised her small fluffy crossbred at 4 with severe HD. Her next pup came from a similar situation that you describe, a lab/akita cross and she euthed it at 9 months old when it started to display increasing aggression. A the wife of a friend of mine bred her rescued kelpie and the pups grew into incredibly neurotic adults, they were really bad. A couple of the desperate owners came to our dog club obedience classes. In fact we got to see a lot of problem dogs come through our obedience classes, many from indiscrimant breedings both purebred and crossbred. We also got people bringing their rescue dogs with issues.

    Purebred or crossbred can both have issues when bred without care. Of course it doesnt go wrong all the time, but the millions of dogs that are dumped and often euthanaised around the world annually suggests that something is going very wrong.

    You would have to be incredibly insulated not to see this. They probably dont want to see especially if they have a nice little cash cow going. Crossbreds certainly can have problems giving birth, quite a few are dumped in rescue when things start to go wrong especially if there is a big mismatch in size of the parents.

    I dont know what the answer is really. I personally would never breed my dogs unless I could guarantee that the pups will never end up in the pound. I would also want to reduce the risk of health problems. Having run the gauntlet with elbow dysplasia several times I would never wish it on anybody.
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 11-10-2012 at 04:02 AM.

  8. #18
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    I don't think you can say that the problems you see in lots of rescue dogs are due to breeding, KC. Lots of them have just been completely effed up by their original owners... To the point were it often becomes impossible to tell what's nature or nurture.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beloz View Post
    I don't think you can say that the problems you see in lots of rescue dogs are due to breeding, KC. Lots of them have just been completely effed up by their original owners... To the point were it often becomes impossible to tell what's nature or nurture.
    Many of them I have seen are from BYB churning out working dog crosses. The dogs have no off switches and are dumped when they get bored and escape, dig, destroy etc,. They are sometimes poorly structured too.

    One thing I have learnt on entering the world of working sheepdogs is that a correctly bred working dog (pure and cross) has an off switch and a calm temperament is highly valued along with the drive to work. These traits are deliberately selected for by responsible breeders who know how to evaluate when choosing a mating. It takes skill to understand a working dogs traits so that you dont end up with something over the top with no impulse control.

    Many of the crosses (and poorly bred purebreds) I have seen are just simply off the dial when I compare them to my working dogs. There are many days when my lot dont get much exercise especially during snakes season when they are strictly contained and they handle it without any problems. They simply dont need hours of exercise and entertainment everyday. But when they get work they have a great work ethic.

    I can well see how people get into trouble with these highly charged, poorly bred dogs. I myself have rescued an off the dial dog and it was all to do with genetics. I was able to gain some control of this dog but her temperament was apalling, I can see exactly why she was dumped. In my situation I was able to keep her safe and give her the management she needed.

    Poor breeding practices also include the inability to place your pups in a suitable home and to give support when things go wrong.
    Sure nurture has something to do with it, but from my observations nature is a very strong influence and can tip things over the edge when paired with an inability by people to deal with this nature.

    In the working world crosses between working breeds are reletively common so that doesnt bother me at all. Selecting for that calm steady working dog paired with the appropriate drives and instincts is what people are looking for. Temperament is a major consideration, it makes training a whole lot easier. A calm dog is a joy, an over the top dog is a pain in the arse.

    A reletive of mine was a surgical specialist and she said that a lot of the orthopedic cases she dealt with were due to poor structure in both pure and crossbreds, costing owners thousands of dollars. All due to poor breeding practices.
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 11-10-2012 at 04:14 PM.

  10. #20
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    We really need to pressure our SA State goverment to adopt some of the puppy laws that the Eastern States now have - that increase accountability and reduce the profit in BYB. Eg no puppy to be rehomed before 8 weeks, all puppies must be vax and wormed and microchipped before going to the new puppy home. That would be a really good start. And then NSW have a huge code that can be enforced that requires clean conditions for the parents and puppies and keeping records of what matings have happened with which dogs - eg family histories, and limiting the number of times the bitch is allowed to be bred - once every two years.

    Animal Welfare Code of Practice - Breeding dogs and cats | NSW Department of Primary Industries

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