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Thread: Pack restructure, and my dogs have fallen out

  1. #1
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    Default Pack restructure, and my dogs have fallen out

    My dogs have fallen out it seems. They do this from time to time. Do other peoples dogs do this? Is there something i can do to help?

    Last w/e, we had Sherlock pup over. He's 16 weeks young, and all biting their chops etc. Prior to this w/e if pup got too boisterous, either dog would grab him by back of neck, he'd go floppy, roll on his back. then the minute they turned away, jump back up and bite again.
    This w/e, i think he may of lost his pup licence, and was told in no uncertain terms, calm down and have some manners. But he bounces back from their reprimands easily. Pup is fine. But maybe the probable cause of the pack restructure and settling down again delay.

    But Bernie and Pohm....
    Pohm is now bone gaurding from Bernie to the point that she wont let him on one side of property where she stores her stash of treasures. Growls and snarls. If i interrupt, she accepts that, i take all her bones, every single one, plus her treasures, and she doesnt get them back. She's fine with me doing this, submissive, ears back low, sloping off looking guilty stuff. At which point,Bernie will hump her. He's humping more this last week than before. 8/10 times, she'll accept his reprimands, 2/10 she resists, short blast of name calling and hold my coat for me posturing, ie. all noise no contact fight.
    When out, they behave fine. But at home, they are arguing over who gets what bed, bone, nearest to me spot and its tiring and i dont like it.

    Pohm is no longer a pup at 14 months. So could be going for leadership? bernie is moaning to me about her a lot. If i am stroking Bernie, she'll squeeze in and push him out. At this point, i get up and walk off. Not wanting to let her decide who/when/how i show affection to bernie.

    The rottie in pohm has her doing this behavior: running and body slamming bernie knocking him flying. This is my 2nd set of rottie and GSD pair of dogs, and the previous pair would play this way. Only lately, its been a bit too rough for my liking, he's rolling over and over on contact and she's been told off big time when caught.

    How can i help them sort this out - faster?
    Ive thought of feeding her first, leashing her first, saying hi to her first, to force the take over that seems to be naturally occurring. Ive stopped the high octane games by emptying the paddling pool, as add water and these two get very silly and rough and loud.

    Even Sherlock pup has noticed the difference, and standing well back when they squabble.

    These 2 dogs are very evenly matched. She has brute strength and estrogen, he has the speed and double the size of her and seems to be able to nail her to the deck when he choses to, generally after a lot of pushing him.
    Last edited by bernie; 09-26-2012 at 06:35 AM.

  2. #2
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    I know that people don't always like my ideas, but I do have a pack and they all coexist and run as a pack constantly, three different breeds, I have little to no problems with them but I don't give them much reason to.

    I guess firstly because I'm pretty relaxed how they want to run things between themselves as in I respect that each dog has individual preferences on what they find most important to them.

    Resource guarding in my home doesn't happen because I don't give them opportunity to, this is something that often has to be managed, every dog has a right to guard food, I've got friends that have 8 or 9 dogs and there is not resource guarding because they don't have a dog that so highly values food, I do and by the sounds of things so do you.

    Each dog has it's own area for it's bones etc and the others don't get an opportunity to challenge that nor do they feel a need to guard it because it's not open to another dog to get that food. They are tethered with bones and then any remains are removed, there never is. Bones are given every third day and each knows where their chain is.

    Patting and attention seeking. Generally but not always given on my terms. One of my bitches will come over whenever I'm patting another dog, I don't worry about that unless it worries the other dog. If it doesn't I don't see much of a problem with this, it's her high value item so I pat her too, I always have to end it because she'd stand there forever getting pats, but what happens between the two dogs I don't worry about, whether the other dog wonders off or not while I'm patting her I don't let worry me. It's obviously not of high enough value to them.

    I understand that Bernie is about 3 or so?? Is he still entire?? Your girl is 14 months and still entire, young hormonal bitch, could she be coming close to her first season? If Bernie is entire there is no way she is taking over leadership, even if he's not given he still is male and is bigger than her I still find it unlikely given their age gap, doesn't mean she's not going to be a typical bitch about things.

    I truly believe if Bernie really disliked something she'd know about it & by the sounds of things when he does she backs down.

    The new pup will have upset the apple-cart a bit, but I think most of the niggles between your older two are to do with them, though having a young pup, and male coming and going??? from your place puts Pohm out. She's looking at possibly going right down the chain in a years time.

    Would I change the feeding pattern, probably not, my Gordon still gets fed first even though she is no longer top dog, in fact my top dog gets fed third, the pattern was established in order of age as each arrived, nobody would know what to do if I changed things now. But I do manage what happens once it's in the dogs possession. Putting down the food etc the food is mine and my choice to make.

    Yes the body slamming needs to be addressed for obvious safety reasons and I have to do that here from time to time due to size differences.
    Last edited by MAC; 09-26-2012 at 10:58 AM.

  3. #3
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    Resource gaurding came to our house 1 week ago. Prior to that. If you can throw it, its bernie's, and if you can eat it, its Pohms.
    As you say, that had it sorted.

    And im happy to accept what ever way they see fit. My request was is there something i can do to speed the process up?

    thankyou for the grounding, its cool, keep butting out of their relationship. Both are desexed. Bernie's 4.

    Its all common sense

    Thanks Mac!

  4. #4
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    I had Pretty (mother, spayed) and Bandit (one of her litter, nearly 3yrs old now, undesexed male)) have some full on fights before their order was decided.

    Since Jessie has come back (litter mate to Bandit and Jodi and both are spayed), Jodi herds her away from me at times, they spat..sometimes over and on my feet or under my legs when they are under the coffee table. I hate this as I can potentially be bitten. If I intervene it turns more vicious so I don't)
    Hackles are up, circling, growling then short spat.

    About 3 nights ago it turned into 2 full on fights inside, not spats but no blood.
    It seems now, touch wood, the situation is defusing and I think and hope their order has been decided.

    Time will only tell but the last few nights have been peaceful. I might add too this happens mostly when I open the door to let them in and it is totally Jodi's instigation. Most other times they get on very well, kissy kissy suck face etc.
    Last edited by Di_dee1; 09-26-2012 at 02:58 PM.

    Any posts made under the name of Di_dee1 one can be used by anyone as I do not give a rats.

  5. #5
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    I am with MAC....I also run a pack, six dogs at present and I do not interfere with the natural order. I do however let them know we are in charge and that seems to keep everyone calm. I have one very large entire male and he is my steady dog. I also have the two bitches from hell, who four years ago fought like hell, but with training and re-establishing our Leadership, they are now fine. They are still bitches and there is the occasional grumble, but not the fight to injury we had in the first few weeks.

    We bring in foster dogs, they go in and out and they all settle. I feed my Leader bitch second and only just because it is easier, I have no order of feeding, never really the top dog first, he is fed mostly last. Ours are all fed together.......No misbehaviour is allowed. We also have bones, ours are daily. But I remove left-over bones if there are any. Again if any issues, I let them know I am not happy.

    I never pet a dog that demands or pushes in to be petted, I call them. And I also walk away from the demanding dog or just ignore.

    I don't think there is a way to change the order. I think if you interfere, you can often get more grumbles/fights. I actually think that is what we did wrong many years ago. I just chill and let my dogs do their thing......

    If I look at my pack, I actually think my youngest bitch will become the Lead female as she really works well with out entire male...they do things very quietly but firmly and are passive leaders. Most other dogs really like them and they tend to have that respect pretty quick. Katy is very loving and friendly, but quite firm with young dogs and has a way with grumpy ones. Luke is the same. So I see these two working side by side.

    I think your dogs just have to stop trying to outdo one another
    Pets are forever

  6. #6
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    It's been a interesting couple of days watching Mojo and Bronx work things out.

    Mojo is such a chilled out dog while Bronx is so far acting a bit bossy and very energetic. Bronx is always pushing in when i give Mojo a pat or cuddle so i'm ignoring him when he does it. It's still early days and i'm not expecting big things yet but it sure is interesting watching them work out who's who and what's what. At this stage i'm guessing that Bronx is going to be top dog.
    Only one little spat when play time got a bit rough but 'Top dog Sean' sorted that one out. ........naughty boys.


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  7. #7
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    All has settled once more. I think the pup was what upset the balance.
    So now we have Pohm at 1yr of age, definately in charge of bernie who's 4.
    The male just doesnt have the same amount of nerve the female does. She'll intimidate him, till he backs down, and he backs down every time now. Phew.
    My she sounds mean too, id be backing down if she were directing that at me.
    At twice his weight, he doesnt stand a chance, she bowls him around the lawn like a bowling ball. But he seems to think this is fine and great fun.
    Happy couple once more.

  8. #8
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    She sounds like one monster (size) of a dog!

  9. #9
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    I also have 6 dogs. My old cattle dog bitch is top dog, more by strength of character and the fact that she has nurtured each new pup that has come into the home except the rescues. My 2 desexed males are same age and evenly matched and I have most trouble with them as they havent sorted it out. One is marginally stronger of body but the other is stronger of character and will not back down.

    I guess I generally let them sort stuff out but there are things I simply wont tolerate. I also never leave my 2 males together when I am out. I leave them each with 2 bitches. My bitches have a defintie pecking order and they tend to pick on the youngest, a rescue kelpie. I simply wont tolerate that, I dont care who I upset. I also dont have a feeding order, they get fed in the order of my convenience which varies. Tough - they deal.

    Dogs that push in to be petted, nah not tolerating that either. I wave them off and they get their turn. Of course I favour my old bitch she is the best and I want to make the most of her before she goes but she still gets tuned if she bullies the young kelpie.

    So I leave things be if they are working but I intervene if they are not according to me or if there is undue bullying or any other such nonsense. I go on the rampage, generally throw my superior weight around and my dogs know it LOL.
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 11-02-2012 at 03:15 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by silvershadowwolf24 View Post
    She sounds like one monster (size) of a dog!
    I have no idea what she weighs? but its twice the GSD at least. But a good 6" shorter than he is. But GSD's are lightweights at around 46kg, so she must be ? 50-60kg i guess.(132 lbs)
    She is the gentlest dog i have ever owned, loves the babies, pups, and can produce cuddling behaviour in the most reluctant of humans. She's also my first ever bitch.

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