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Thread: Problem Breeding same breed different size HELP!

  1. #61
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    Also everything from breeding dogs to repairing cars requires finding an honest and reliable person.

    When I drop my car off at the mechanic I have to trust my judgement that I selected an honest mechanic, licensed, that does indeed service my car.

    If I found he wasn't I'd report him and he's be fined and I can do the same with registered breeders.

  2. #62
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    Sorry about AWDRI link ??? I do not run Mcafee (use a different one).
    I was just looking for a PTS list and googled "PTS pound dogs Australia"
    that was on page one.
    I have seen on the dark side people post all the pound urgent PTS dogs
    the lists are so long sometimes, too depressing I have to log off.
    Last edited by chubbsecurity; 07-09-2012 at 08:20 AM. Reason: comma

  3. #63
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    I recommend that these two dogs get desexed because they are looking for help breeding dogs of different sizes over the internet, which means they have no mentor and should be discouraged because a difficult mating could in all probability be the least of their problems.

    None of my puppy owners are on the internet asking for help with teething and I'm certainly not on the net asking for assistance with breeding. My puppy owners know to ask me for assistance first and if I need help with breeding/mating I have on speed dial many experienced breeders willing to be in a car in five seconds flat.

    If people want to know who is a good breeder find a registered breeder who will want to be the first port of call when if you are having difficulty with teething, toilet training, eating etc etc. And if you want to be a good breeder make sure you have on speed dial at least one highly experienced breeder who is waiting by the phone just in case, probably because it's one of their beloved babies expecting.
    Last edited by MAC; 07-09-2012 at 08:26 AM.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by cavalierqld View Post
    I cant belive the ANKC STILL dosent enforce mandatory genetic testing for parents when registering puppies????

    There are a lot of easily managed ways we can promote to fix the problems associated with mass and unethical breeding, and many good ideas in this thread... but promoting an unethical organisation that does nothing for the welfare of dogs is not helping.
    I am not a huge fan of ANKC but of recent times it has started to enforce testing of parents for certain conditions like dysplasias before litters can be registered in some high risk breeds. This has come about because of complaints. It also allocates money to certain genetic condition research programs.

    I have a dog from a registered ANKC breeder who started of with good intentions many years ago but turned into nothing more that a puppy mill. My dog has an inherited genetic condition along with a number of other dogs from the same breeder. Letters of complaints and documentation from specialist vets fell on deaf ears. The ANKC did write to inform the breeder but nothing more was done in this case. But other breeds did have certain rules enforced due to the large number of complaints as mentioned above. So things are improving. I personally also know some very good ethical breeders among the ANKC breeders who strive to do the right thing.

    As a person who requires proven working dogs the ANKC is obviously not my first port of call when looking for a dog. I do however look for a breeder who has proven working dogs in the paddock and and also in the working world certain lines are well known for various problems or the way they work. So word of mouth is probably more important than anything else, when looking for a working prospect. Some breeders health test but not all as more often than not hard work at a young age sorts them out. A good breeder choses their lines carefully with full knowledge.

    Unfortunately as in the ANKC there are also breedings taking place that should never have been and surplus pups that sometimes land in inappropriate homes and dumped on the pet market.

    I personally have no problem if someone has put a lot of thought into breeding their dog and understands the health testing required, has evaluted the structure and temperament (and working ability where required) of both dogs and has done everything possible to ensure the pairing is a sound one. They have homes in mind for their pups and have made a concious decision to take the pups back if they are at threat of being taken to the pound. They are also fully aware of the expenses and care involved in raising the pups to 8 weeks. They are a good source of advice and ensure that their pups are not going on to be thoughtlessly bred by someone else.

    The buying public could have a lot of sway if they really took breeders to task and bought appropriately, but those cute adoring puppy eyes seem to overwhelm people and heartbreak abounds when genetic conditions raise their head or the dog is unsuitable in the home it was placed and is dumped.

    I myself have a rescue working dog that was excess to the farmers requirements and sold as a pup into the pet market with disasterous consequences.

    I think that having organisations like the ANKC and working registers is not a bad thing if they work hard to put rules in place and follow up on complaints - for instance if you are an approved breeder with the working kelpie council, your pups carry a quarantee to work or they have to be replaced, which is incentive to breed high quality working dogs.

    To me breeding dogs is a priveledge and not a right and one to be exercised in full knowledge.
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 07-09-2012 at 09:23 AM.

  5. #65
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    @CavalierQld

    I recommend ANKC because they have a code of ethics. It's better than breeders that have no code of ethics. Even the labradoodle association has a code of ethics - I don't happen to hold much respect for their code of ethics because it doesn't do anything to discourage puppy mills or limit how many litters a bitch will have - ie mass breeding of puppies for profit. And their basic idea of breeding a hypoallergenic dog is flawed.

    But even this is better than the OP just shoving two dogs together in hope of getting puppies with no consideration of the health of the puppies or the bitch or what homes they might end up in. I think it's good to question a person like this. It's not "tearing them down". It's trying to prevent the puppy equivalent of a car accident.

    Personally I think its wrong to continually support breeders with no code of ethics and no health testing or planning and no interest in the long term welfare of the puppies and dogs. Which is what you seem to be doing.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC View Post
    Cavalierqld, I find your posts offensive in the large part.

    I'm a registered breeder, I abide by the code of ethics set out, I show and breed very occasionally from my healthy and sound dogs.

    I do not see anything wrong with members advocating that a person should source an ANKC registered breeder. This is the starting point from which a person finds the right breeder. Otherwise you will be sending them to where???? to source a breeder from gumtree??

    You yourself have admitted to not registering the pups you breed so immediately break their rules, and I'm sure others do the same, but not all of us do.

    Some of us, breed from healthy and sound dogs, test for things that are not mandatory in the breed, register all litters, screen our buyers very carefully, are prepared to discount puppy prices to get them in the right homes, will be the alternate number on the microchip contact, treat the dogs as pets and not breed the life out of our bitches.

    You also seem to think that every breeder will be scrambling to get a vet certificate to breed more than the recommended number of litters, and in all honesty if the vet believes the bitch is capable of it then why not if she's in good health? To be quite frank most breeders are reluctant to pull their champion or top winning bitches from the ring for a litter in the first place.

    I've recently completed a course conducted by the ANKC and the vet lecturers are starting to believe that we need to consider breeding from our dogs at 12 months for that first litter and not waiting until they are 2 or three years of age, like the majority of breeders do.

    I don't know what type of registered breeder you hang around, but all the ones I'm associated with are pretty good to exceptional. I'm not sitting ont he fringes stating this but out there amongst them seeing it with my own eyes. Sure there's some to avoid but you talk as though the ANKC is overrun by unethical breeders.
    I am sorry you find my posts offensive Mac, I dont mean to offend anyone, and never mentioned ALL registered breeders are unethical, and i know you are a very ethical and responsible dog owner
    I was refering to the comments that pop up here on a regular basis suggesting if a dog is not registered...it should never be bred from.

    My point is...anyone can breed healthy and happy dogs...being registered is no more of a guarantee of getting a healthy dog than buying from a pup from the OP. I dont see how you can point to ANKC registered as the be all of dog breeding, when there "code of ethics" barely touches on the welfare of the dog, in particular breeding.

    You yourself have admitted to not registering the pups you breed so immediately break their rules, and I'm sure others do the same, but not all of us do.

    Your right, i dont show, and dont agree with the policies of the ANKC, and have a far higher personal standard than they suggest, so why would i be a part of something i dont agree with.

    On one hand you say the ANKC is not responsible for ensuring members do the right thing, and then you say i am breaking the rules? The rules are hypocritical, and only there for those doing the right thing. I am also not a member anymore and have cancelled my membership, so yes,now I am REALLY one of baddies.
    It would be like me joining a cult and being required to lower my standards because someone else thinks its right??
    I have bred 2 litters and i am 50, and never sold a pup to the public and according to many here i am a BYB???
    Yet many are happy to support the darkside and those that have multiple litters and sell off unwanted stock???

    I just dont understand that......?

    I would be more than happy to support an organisation that promotes the health welfare of the animal as the main priority and enforces it, and promotes any other state and federal changes to animal welfare, but unless i buy a labradoodle....there is no other organisation worth supporting IMO.
    Last edited by cavalierqld; 07-09-2012 at 05:42 PM.
    The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
    Mohandas Gandhi

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC View Post
    Also everything from breeding dogs to repairing cars requires finding an honest and reliable person.

    When I drop my car off at the mechanic I have to trust my judgement that I selected an honest mechanic, licensed, that does indeed service my car.

    If I found he wasn't I'd report him and he's be fined and I can do the same with registered breeders.
    Thats exactly right Mac, but lets not be telling everyone who will listen that every mechanic who is a member of the mechanics association, who have no enforcable ethical standards will do a good job, and mechanics who are not memebers should never be allowed to touch a car.
    The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
    Mohandas Gandhi

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    @CavalierQld

    I recommend ANKC because they have a code of ethics. It's better than breeders that have no code of ethics. Even the labradoodle association has a code of ethics - I don't happen to hold much respect for their code of ethics because it doesn't do anything to discourage puppy mills or limit how many litters a bitch will have - ie mass breeding of puppies for profit. And their basic idea of breeding a hypoallergenic dog is flawed.

    But even this is better than the OP just shoving two dogs together in hope of getting puppies with no consideration of the health of the puppies or the bitch or what homes they might end up in. I think it's good to question a person like this. It's not "tearing them down". It's trying to prevent the puppy equivalent of a car accident.

    Personally I think its wrong to continually support breeders with no code of ethics and no health testing or planning and no interest in the long term welfare of the puppies and dogs. Which is what you seem to be doing.

    This is there code of ethics Hyacinth, you will find they will not register puppies without certificates of hip eys etc, they have FINES for breaches of the code and enforce them. They force members to sign a guarantee saying they will refund money and take back the pup if there is found to be congenetal issues...and a lot more the ANKC dosent provide.

    I know its not perfect , but to me this is a good start, with health and welfare number no 1, im not sure if that will change if/when they affiliate with the ANKC which is what they are hoping to do...i hope not!

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    LA code of ethics - Note the number of clauses pertaining to health and well being.

    (Post a link. Removed the irrlelevant bits)

    1.3. I acknowledge that I have never had any membership revoked or suspended by a Canine Association or if so, have provided details relating to such an incident, with my breeders application and will notify the ALA if this were to occur. 1-5

    1.21 A bitch will not have more than 2 litters in an 18 month period (Note: NSW code of ethics permits 2 litters in 2 years). (1-4)


    1.22 A bitch will not be bred for more than 4 litters without veterinary certification for fitness and not more than 5 litters in total. (1-4)


    1.23 A bitch will not be bred beyond her 6th birthday (Note she may whelp after her 6th birthday as long as she is not mated after this time). (1-4)
    Last edited by Hyacinth; 07-10-2012 at 10:45 AM.
    The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
    Mohandas Gandhi

  9. #69
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    ANKC code of ethics.

    (Post a link)
    Last edited by Hyacinth; 07-10-2012 at 10:41 AM.
    The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
    Mohandas Gandhi

  10. #70
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    Then if you are no longer a breeder you are in all likelihood no longer associated with breeders and therefore may not be aware of the standard that many registered breeders uphold.

    Many of us go beyond the requirements of the ANKC and some have joined the new breeder scheme. Some are members of their breed clubs which also have a criteria.

    I personally think as I've said before, if you are going to breed, be registered, uphold the minimum requirements in all aspects as a good starting point and then strive to be better.

    The pet buying public needs to have a starting point for buying purebred dogs.

    Would I take my car to an unlicensed mechanic? The only unlicensed mechanic it sees is my husband who is not paid, if I'm paying for my car to be worked on then yes they will be licensed as a minimum.

    Ju

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