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Thread: Problem Breeding same breed different size HELP!

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    KL could you be more specific about what kind of "virus". Some virus checkers get upset about certain kinds of web code that can be used for good just as much as evil.

    Trouble with the Australian working dog rescue - is it can be a bit of a cobweb at times - ie sometimes the updates are up to date and sometimes not. i think they may get overwhelmed as there are just so many homeless working dogs, now that people dump them at the pound more often than they shoot them. They still get shot, just look up the $30,000 kelpie.

    I've removed references to the dark side forum. They are our competition - so you really shouldn't be referencing them to support your argument. I will sometimes accept links to breeder ads - because that's where most of them are. But not if you're going to mention it in any way that could be thought derogatory. Keep it positive or leave it out.

    And while we might be an "and cross breed" forum, the current dogforum policy is for discouraging backyard breeders and non-ankc breeders and for encouraging ethical breeders or responsible breeders (eg as per the RSPCA guidelines). I'm not saying the policy is perfect but that's where it is at for now.
    I'm not really sure what kind of virus it was, i have bad memory it wasn't a trojan so it can't be that harmful. Your virus scanners should remove it. Hopefully.
    No one loves you like your dog does.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by jadielee87 View Post
    No it is not acceptable and I am well aware that there are many ANKC registered breeders that are no better than these BYB's. But how often do you find a pure bred with papers in the pound? On the pound rounds posted on facebook I see a maybe one or two with papers every so often. The rest are BYBer specials. I think even when I was at the RSPCA and never came across any either... maybe they were all taken on by rescue organisations, who knows. While there are problematic egistered breeders I think BYB's are a bigger issue.
    .

    Of course there are millions of x breeds in pounds there are also a lot of purebreeds, if your going to dump your purebred, your not going to attach its papers are you?

    You are just assuming they are not registered!

    I just not not why we keep refering to ANKC regulations and rules and memebers as some kind of goal to achieve in life, and anything less is second rate?

    The "guidelines they put on breeding are nothing more than you would see in puppy mill!, Granted you will need a vet check to breed as many litters as you like, from almost any age but you still can and a "vet health check" as someone mentioned before, does not determine the dog is free from congenital diseases. ANKC, regulations are well suited to people looking to make money from breeding, using the "registered banner" to lull people into a [B]false sense of security[/B

    I get really offended when i hear people tear down an OP (justified or not) for breeding or wanting to breed, then go on to say "go to a registered breeder and get healthy dogs, who may have 20 for sale, both young and old" ?

    We need to advocate for ethical breeding, less animals in cages and to choose a breeder with the animals best interests at heart, not the organasation in general. Its almost like some folks here are being paid to recruit more members?
    The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
    Mohandas Gandhi

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by cavalierqld View Post
    Thats really interesting hyacinth, I wasnt aware NSW had a legally enforcable code of ethics?

    Do you know how they regulate the regulations above, ie enforcement and reporting?

    And what are the actual legal consequences?

    Are they criminal?

    I notice some of the regulations above conflict with ANKC ie, ANKC allows the breeding of dogs on first season as long as they are 12 months old, ANKC allows breeding twice in 18 months which would qualify dogs for 2 consecutive back to back breedings. How do they get around that?
    Ok, Thank you hyacinth, when you said legal consequences, i assumed finally someone was getting tough and "enforcing" ethical breeding standards.
    The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
    Mohandas Gandhi

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by newfsie View Post
    You should work in breed rescue like i do...I have two pure bred dogs at home that are papered the landed in the pound........More to do with wanting a cute fluffy puppy and on of those "gorgeous bears" not realising all the effort and money involved with owning one, in the newfie case....But there are also hundreds of BC's, ADC's, Kelpies and other pure breeds, I help with working dog rescue. RSPCA locally also gets quite a few pure-breed dogs...Now with micro-chipping you can actually identify where the Breeders are sometimes

    I would love to make it law that the breeders info stays with the microchip forever...So that it could be searched and collated if a Breeder was producing excessive puppies that were landing in the pound/shelter/rescue.
    Make them responsible for what they breed..i know a few newfie Breeders intentionally keep their info on the microchips and take the dogs back when they are in trouble.........That is responsible Breeding. I am sure there are other Breed breeders who do the same.

    If Breeders were responsible for the puppies forever they would be a lot more careful with placing puppies and wouldn't that get rid of puppy farms? Can you imagine all the poundies/rescues that were the responsibility of the puppy farm again. If they had more then a certain amount of dogs landing in the pounds....... fine them........might sort it all out. Chuck the responsibility back at those that Breed, pure bred or not, BYB's, Puppy Farms or ANKC Breeders. The whole Bl**y lot, make them care and be responsible
    Amen Newfsie, thank you!!!!!!!! , Exactly my point, anyone who breeds and sells dogs and puppies should be responsible for the LIFE for that animal...forever. How hard would be to enforce. Breeder details on every micro chip, and force the breeder to take the animal back, whether it lands in a pound, is found on a street or is unwanted by the new owner.
    Breeders would then end up with so many dogs....they will have to stop breeding! I would bet my last dollar breed groups and the ANKC wouldnt enforce it or make it mandatory!
    The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
    Mohandas Gandhi

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalacreek View Post
    Having working dogs of my own this made me very sad. Most of those dogs are so young. I cant understand the need that people have to breed their dogs for either some emotional reason of their own or some other reason that really does not warrant bringing more pups into the world.
    I know in my local pounds and rescues, 5 dogs out of 10 are purebred staffies or BC's or heelers, the others are a mix of these breeds, its really sad as the working breeds are "cute" as puppies but require a specific owner willing and able to give them the excersise they need. And staffies, well they generally need an specific type of person as well..there not breeds for everyone. Cute as puppies, then end up on death row....sad!
    The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
    Mohandas Gandhi

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by RuralPug View Post
    I didn't consider my post hypocritical, possibly badly worded because I tried to make it simple. Even if the OP doesn't give a rat's about her own dogs and dogs in general, other people might benefit from it.

    I happen to agree with you and I don't put ANKC breeders up on a pedestal, only ethical breeders. And those certainly can and do exist outside the ANKC as well as within. There are certaininly some puppy farmers and BYBs within the ANKC.

    The word "pedigree" does not have to mean ANKC it can mean any genuine register as far as I am concerned certainly including some working dog registries, development registries etc. Guide Dogs in some states, for example, may be outside the ANKC, but are ethically breed and 'pedigreed' in my book, they can trace back many generations and perfomance test as well as health test.

    The point was that because the OP doesn't have a registered ancestry list for their dogs, they don't have a starting point and can't say "this line is clear of eye problems so we don't need to test for that" and will have to test for everything and even then it is not guaranteed. And Pomeranians don't have a working or development register they only have the ANKC or MDBA here in Australia.

    I am not defending ANKC breeders per se, some are ethical and some are not but I will say that people without any registry association are less likely to be ethical breeders than those who are.

    And, in case you didn't know, if you can prove unethical dealings by any (dark side) advertiser, then advise the owner of (that website) and that advertiser will be removed. So that is a far safer avenue to recommend to people than, say (open internet classifieds) who don't give a damn.
    It wasnt just your post i was refering to RP, and thank you for clarifying your post re: "if your not registered your dogs will have issues". It's just that I find the "code of ethics" for breeding, attached to the ANKC highly unethical, with enough loopholes to drive a semi through.
    You can be a puppy farmer and be registered, they dont enforce genetic testing, and you can breed from 12 months, a simle vet check will ensure you can still register as many litters as you want, the bitch can be older than reccomended, your dogs can live in clean kennels their whole lives, you can own and breed as many as you like, get rid of the ones that arnt up to standard or past breeding, you dont need to test your breeding animals for hereditory conditions and they dont enforce any "rules", they only offer suggestions as a guide for those who choose to be ethical breeders ....

    Yet they can still fly under the percieved "ethical" flag which is very misleading for puppy buyers, and promoted heavily here by some?

    I agree there are great small breeders registerd or not going over and above the pitiful ANKC standards..but sadly they are the minority with money being the main motivater...registered or not!

    Look up the "code of ethics" for the Labradoodle association, labradoodles are crucified here by some as mutts, and agree or not its an individual opinion, but look at the way this club has gone above and beyond to ENFORCE there health regulations for all members. I came across it recently and was really impressed! Now there is a an organisation doing something for the health and well being of its breed. And i would have no hesitation reccomending a buyer to one of its members!!!!!!

    The ANKC is only an avenue to promote and regulate the sport of dog showing, and i think in that respect, they do it very well, but they should not be embelished in the public media for for promoting ethical breeding..that IMO is misleading.

    In America they have many "kennel clubs" and registries all percieved to be the place to find a healthy pup, all flying the ethical banner, none of them are regulated in the best interests of the dog..only the profits for breeders.

    I could start up a registry here, get membership and hold myself out to be the epitomy of dog breeders, charge a mint for pups, have a code of ethics not worth the paper its written on...and still be called "ethical", why, because i say so, not good enough.

    I just think we should stop refering to "registered breeders" making people assume they will get a healthy pup and start putting out a list things to look for when buying a puppy which will help people find an ethical breeder.

    I cant belive the ANKC STILL dosent enforce mandatory genetic testing for parents when registering puppies????

    There are a lot of easily managed ways we can promote to fix the problems associated with mass and unethical breeding, and many good ideas in this thread... but promoting an unethical organisation that does nothing for the welfare of dogs is not helping.
    Last edited by cavalierqld; 07-09-2012 at 01:36 AM.
    The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
    Mohandas Gandhi

  7. #57

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    ****Edited****

    Just breathe Crested.... Breathe....
    Last edited by Crested_Love; 07-09-2012 at 02:24 AM.

  8. #58
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    Crested...... I know we will never agree on this and dont mean to offend you....
    The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
    Mohandas Gandhi

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by cavalierqld View Post
    .

    Of course there are millions of x breeds in pounds there are also a lot of purebreeds, if your going to dump your purebred, your not going to attach its papers are you?

    You are just assuming they are not registered!

    I just not not why we keep refering to ANKC regulations and rules and memebers as some kind of goal to achieve in life, and anything less is second rate?

    The "guidelines they put on breeding are nothing more than you would see in puppy mill!, Granted you will need a vet check to breed as many litters as you like, from almost any age but you still can and a "vet health check" as someone mentioned before, does not determine the dog is free from congenital diseases. ANKC, regulations are well suited to people looking to make money from breeding, using the "registered banner" to lull people into a [B]false sense of security[/B

    I get really offended when i hear people tear down an OP (justified or not) for breeding or wanting to breed, then go on to say "go to a registered breeder and get healthy dogs, who may have 20 for sale, both young and old" ?

    We need to advocate for ethical breeding, less animals in cages and to choose a breeder with the animals best interests at heart, not the organasation in general. Its almost like some folks here are being paid to recruit more members?
    I'm not sure I have seen anyone on this site say that. Everyone that talks about the issue generally encourages people to take on rescues or pups/dog from ethical breeders not registered puppy mills.

    We need to advocate for ethical breeding, less animals in cages and to choose a breeder with the animals best interests at heart, not the organasation in general. Its almost like some folks here are being paid to recruit more members?
    Isn't this what we do? I have never seen any different.

    There is no psychiatrist in the world like a puppy licking your face.

  10. #60
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    Cavalierqld, I find your posts offensive in the large part.

    I'm a registered breeder, I abide by the code of ethics set out, I show and breed very occasionally from my healthy and sound dogs.

    I do not see anything wrong with members advocating that a person should source an ANKC registered breeder. This is the starting point from which a person finds the right breeder. Otherwise you will be sending them to where???? to source a breeder from gumtree??

    You yourself have admitted to not registering the pups you breed so immediately break their rules, and I'm sure others do the same, but not all of us do.

    Some of us, breed from healthy and sound dogs, test for things that are not mandatory in the breed, register all litters, screen our buyers very carefully, are prepared to discount puppy prices to get them in the right homes, will be the alternate number on the microchip contact, treat the dogs as pets and not breed the life out of our bitches.

    You also seem to think that every breeder will be scrambling to get a vet certificate to breed more than the recommended number of litters, and in all honesty if the vet believes the bitch is capable of it then why not if she's in good health? To be quite frank most breeders are reluctant to pull their champion or top winning bitches from the ring for a litter in the first place.

    I've recently completed a course conducted by the ANKC and the vet lecturers are starting to believe that we need to consider breeding from our dogs at 12 months for that first litter and not waiting until they are 2 or three years of age, like the majority of breeders do.

    I don't know what type of registered breeder you hang around, but all the ones I'm associated with are pretty good to exceptional. I'm not sitting ont he fringes stating this but out there amongst them seeing it with my own eyes. Sure there's some to avoid but you talk as though the ANKC is overrun by unethical breeders.
    Last edited by MAC; 07-09-2012 at 07:53 AM.

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