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Thread: Interesting article about animal intelligence

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mosh View Post
    Humans are only doing what comes naturally to any species when they overpopulate. Take away predators and environmental hazards and all animals will destroy their environment by consuming everything they possibly can. For all our intelligence, we still haven't figured out a way of controlling our own population to a sustainable level.
    I disagree.

    A lot of animal species migrate. They strip the land of goodness and move on to the next area, allowing the first area to replenish. And those animals that dont migrate, dont cause much damage.

    Doing what comes natural? Wiping out entire species is not natural. Its sick, greedy and arrogant.

    I do agree that we need population control...I have some pretty strong ideas on that that not many people like so best leave them off this forum lest some get upset.

    We dont do that. We find a good spot and then we built a concrete city on it and allow it to expand exponentially.

    I agree with OM. I am not keen on people at all as a species. We are just another animal regardless of what we think. Our lives are no more (or less) important than that of an animal of another species. We just think we are special, and that about sums up our problem, we think we are more important than everything else.

    Im gonna watch Hya's videos now

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    Here's some more - from the Science Report on the ABC last Saturday (June 23rd 2012).

    Frans de Waal, Professor of Primate Behaviour at Emory University, Atlanta Georgia USA gave several talks based on his latest book

    There's a lot of video showing what various monkeys and elephants do when offered ethical dilemas and reporting that similar experiments have been done with dogs and other mammals showing they do have a sense of fair play and care for others in their group of friends.

    videos that go with the talk
    Frans de Waal: Moral behavior in animals - YouTube 17 minutes approx

    at 14 minutes and 30 seconds you see monkey opinion of low value treat when its friend is getting a high value one.

    The science report - with more detail.
    Saturday 23 June 2012 - The Science Show - ABC Radio National (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

    I cant watch that video...apparently its been blocke din thi country due to copyright???!!!

    Nevermind I just went and found it

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lala View Post
    I disagree.

    A lot of animal species migrate. They strip the land of goodness and move on to the next area, allowing the first area to replenish. And those animals that dont migrate, dont cause much damage.

    Doing what comes natural? Wiping out entire species is not natural. Its sick, greedy and arrogant.

    I do agree that we need population control...I have some pretty strong ideas on that that not many people like so best leave them off this forum lest some get upset.

    We dont do that. We find a good spot and then we built a concrete city on it and allow it to expand exponentially.

    I agree with OM. I am not keen on people at all as a species. We are just another animal regardless of what we think. Our lives are no more (or less) important than that of an animal of another species. We just think we are special, and that about sums up our problem, we think we are more important than everything else.

    Im gonna watch Hya's videos now
    It's not all people though, but mainly the industrialised world. I like reading about indigenous cultures and early human history and they used to heed the lessons they learnt from experiences like over-hunting.

    I think those "primitive" cultures were a lot smarter than we are now because they realised they depended on their natural environment while us civilised people tend to think that all we need to survive comes from factories and nature is just a bonus when we feel like going for a walk and seeing the views.

    I really liked the book "The future eaters" which actually talked about human cultures almost eating themselves into extinction. Most of the time they save themselves and put measures in place to prevent a repeat just before it is too late, but not always. The book claimed the people from Easter Island got themselves trapped without food because of their greed.

  4. #14
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    I think some nomadic cultures - lived in a sustainable way eg Aboriginies, but they forgot why they moved from place to place... or at least the young ones couldn't see the point...

    But if you stay in one spot - you need to clean up after yourself and live hygienically in a way that was not as important as when you moved on and all the crap you left behind would decompose and return to dust. And that includes things like the tools and utensils they used. Unfortunately nobody sells soft drink in bark cups.

    I think humans may be the one species that can see the long term consequences of their actions and do something to prevent disaster. It's just so many of us are not that evolved.

    I can't help thinking about the fall of Rome - where they built a lot of gladiator stadiums to entertain the masses instead of making sure the hordes were kept out and there was enough food to eat. I think the Sahara was caused by trying to sustain the Egyptian civilisation too. And the same kind of thing has happenned in WA - all the timber got chopped down for miles around to feed the mining equipment (which burned wood to turn the engines). And that and some really bad farming practice lead to the salinity problems they have now.

    Lots of animals breed up until the resources run out, and then they starve - and it's horrible but very natural. Humans have a bit of work to do if they don't want to go the same way. We have the ability and the resources now - to rise above our evolution but will we?

    It may take the Chinese and their long term system of government to do it. They're starting to turn the corner now. Will be interesting to see how that goes. They may not care too much about little creatures that don't seem to be contributing to human survival.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    Unfortunately nobody sells soft drink in bark cups.
    They do in India! Well, it's actually clay cups. When you're finished, you just smash them and they are immediately turned to dust. They also serve food on plates made of pressed dried leaves. When you're finished with those, you just drop them in front of the first cow you come across, which is never far away.

    And that was waaaaay off topic!

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by 99bottles View Post
    Yes but I like to think we are doing a better job than most. Things could be worse. Humans have empathy - otherwise we wouldn't even have any individuals in the population who cared about the destruction. Also, birth rates in the 'developed' world have fallen below replacement levels (ie the fertility rate of women is below 2). If we succeed in bringing everyone to the same level, provide them with more to do in life than reproduce and increase rights for women etc we should see the trend extend to the rest of the human population.
    You make a good point, I never thought about it that way before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lala View Post
    I disagree.

    A lot of animal species migrate. They strip the land of goodness and move on to the next area, allowing the first area to replenish. And those animals that dont migrate, dont cause much damage.

    Doing what comes natural? Wiping out entire species is not natural. Its sick, greedy and arrogant.

    I do agree that we need population control...I have some pretty strong ideas on that that not many people like so best leave them off this forum lest some get upset.

    We dont do that. We find a good spot and then we built a concrete city on it and allow it to expand exponentially.

    I agree with OM. I am not keen on people at all as a species. We are just another animal regardless of what we think. Our lives are no more (or less) important than that of an animal of another species. We just think we are special, and that about sums up our problem, we think we are more important than everything else.

    Im gonna watch Hya's videos now
    Exactly......Ty lala.
    The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
    Mohandas Gandhi

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beloz View Post
    It's not all people though, but mainly the industrialised world.
    .
    It;s certainly not all people...but it is the ones that are capable. There are more destroying our planet than than able to fix it..or stop it. You only have to listen to the opinions here?
    But we cant stop the mining, we cant keep the greedy out of the oceans, we cant stop the worlds population breeding themselves to eventual extinction and we cant stop the develpment destroying the forests....there just are not enough people that care more for our grandchildrens future than money.
    The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
    Mohandas Gandhi

  9. #19
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    All I can do is try.

    I'm not perfect but if I have a choice, I buy second hand car, furniture...

    And I try not to waste water, I try to buy low food miles - australian owned etc.

    If you think your bit doesn't make a difference, you're part of the problem.

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lala View Post
    Doing what comes natural? Wiping out entire species is not natural. Its sick, greedy and arrogant.
    Individually we realize that consuming the entire world is wrong. Collectively we are a vast machine that needs to be fed, sheltered, transported, and entertained. We are not destroying the world on purpose, our species just isn't advanced enough to effectively handle its massive population.

    Every species will wipe out other species if their numbers become too large, there just isn't enough food, land, or resources to go around. We're not TRYING to kill everything, nature just gets in our way. Seen one way, we are a force of nature ourselves - like the meteor that killed the dinosaurs, we are changing the earth's climate as a side-effect of our expansion. Like the meteor, we are creating an age of mass extinction.

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