Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 28

Thread: Cesar Milan article/s

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    4,292

    Default Cesar Milan article/s

    I liked this article: The Rise and Fall of Cesar Millan, The Dog Whisperer

    But found especially some of the linked articles and blogs interesting. This one in particular: Dog Whisperer - Dog Spelled Forward

    And I'm going to watch that "Through a dog's eyes" doco tonight. You can view it on the PBS website.

    It is true that some of Milan's opponents can voice their opposition in a pretty extreme way. Especially those that advocate their training method as the only viable one. I also don't agree that everything has to be based on scientific research. I don't go checking scientific studies to decide how to treat my child either, though I will read them out of interest and take from them what I need.

    I also do believe that Milan really loves dogs. And he does give dog owners some pretty sound advice too about exercising and generally about their responsibilities.

    But those comments on the Dog Whisperer episodes do make a lot of sense.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Melbourne VIC
    Posts
    607

    Default

    I will definitely read those when I have time, thanks

    I like Cesar, especially for the way he is putting pit bulls in a good light. I would like to meet him and just have a long discussion about dogs. I think it would interesting

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Logan, Brisbane QLD
    Posts
    806

    Default

    I read the rise and fall article. I don't know much about dog training apart from what we use at Obedience. I don't see anything wrong with what he does in regards to the episodes i have seen, however like alot of the comments below the article had pointed out - how much of it is edited & why does he not recap on the dogs he has trained? (we never see how any of the cases have turned months down the track - did it really work?)

    I agree above with belinda - i like the way he uses PBT's in his training. It's a positive move for the breed.

  4. Default

    Beloz: This is a very reasoned response to our article. Some of the (many) commenters below our article take their opposition to an extreme, accusing Millan of hating animals. There is no basis for that. No doubt he thinks what he is doing is right for him in rehabilitating very troubled dogs. And as he says himself, "My way is not the only way." But, again, some of the methods he uses are questionable, others are the canine equivalent of spanking a child, and we've no doubt that a positive, reward-based approach works best.

    Thanks for helping draw attention to this.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Geelong, Vic
    Posts
    871

    Default

    I just think that so many people have an opinion on his training methods, yet only the miniscule percentage have actually handled dogs like the one's he has. I have a healthy respect for the man, I have had some really really full on dogs pass through my hands and sometimes you have to do what you have to do when you're at risk of having a chunk taken out.

    we've no doubt that a positive, reward-based approach works best.
    You always need reward. He does reward the dogs in his series it's just not necessarily straight out handing treats over to the dog. The removal of stress can be a reward as well to the dog and means a lot more then a treat to some. These are not your average dogs though if you watch in a lot of episodes, and for some dogs its last chance to learn and they better learn quickly and safely. One thing positive reinforcement only doesn't get you is a great level of proofing compared to using it coupled with consequence to wrong action.

    Walk a mile in the man's shoes, then pass judgement. All this is, is a byproduct of the internet age ... too many armchair heros.
    Last edited by Nekhbet; 02-06-2012 at 07:33 AM.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    4,292

    Default

    Thanks for your response Petsadviser.

    I do think it is a bit worrying that he has become so popular and I personally did not learn any dog training skills from the shows that I watched - and I used to watch his show daily with my daughter for a while. And the comments on some episode in the blog that you linked to really highlighted that for me. There was one example where he taught the owner of a chihuahua to finger stab the dog whenever he growled at her baby (for taking away the dog's favourite toy!). The blog questioned how workable this was because there was no assurance at all that this would "fix" the behaviour. So the owner would have still always had to watch the dog like a hawk and been ready to do the finger stab if he did growl. It's just not workable for most dog owners. It's the equivalent of giving your child a smack for running across the road but never explain to them why that behaviour is undesirable!

    The blog also mentions a few times that growling should never be punished because the dog will learn not to give any warning before he bites.

    I am not an experienced dog trainer, but all of that makes a lot more sense than Milan's methods and explanations. And of course reward-based methods rarely carry the risk of causing the dog real damage. So they are much safer for the lay dog owner to use. So while I respect him as a person and a dog lover, I do regret that his show has become so popular.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    4,292

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nekhbet View Post
    I just think that so many people have an opinion on his training methods, yet only the miniscule percentage have actually handled dogs like the one's he has. I have a healthy respect for the man, I have had some really really full on dogs pass through my hands and sometimes you have to do what you have to do when you're at risk of having a chunk taken out.



    You always need reward. He does reward the dogs in his series it's just not necessarily straight out handing treats over to the dog. The removal of stress can be a reward as well to the dog and means a lot more then a treat to some. These are not your average dogs though if you watch in a lot of episodes, and for some dogs its last chance to learn and they better learn quickly and safely. One thing positive reinforcement only doesn't get you is a great level of proofing compared to using it coupled with consequence to wrong action.

    Walk a mile in the man's shoes, then pass judgement. All this is, is a byproduct of the internet age ... too many armchair heros.
    I didn't find this article, nor the ones it linked to overly judgemental, Nekhbet. The comments might have been, but I didn't read many. I think we all agree that positive reinforcement training is the best way to train a dog. But no one here was saying that it is the only method and that it will work on all dogs. The article deals with the extreme reaction of some people to Milan. Which is not constructive. However, I for one think it is a good thing to point out the flaws in his methods - like using specific examples like the blog does - and propose alternatives.

    And it is not made really clear in his show that these methods should only be used on extreme cases, is it? I doubt he says that in his books either. There are heaps of people out there who are under the impression that he is the guru on dog training and therein lies the danger for me. If the show would have just been presented differently, I wouldn't have much of a problem with it.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Melbourne VIC
    Posts
    607

    Default

    I agree positive reinforcement training is the best way to TEACH a dog, however to TRAIN a dog it must be coupled with punishment, whether it be P+ or P-, the choice is yours.

    However to remove undesirable behaviour from a dog, such as aggression, it is not always possible to refuse a treat or simply put in another room without attention.

    I say, it is better to fill your tool belt and learn how to use every tool. Then with the tools you have, you pick out which is best for the job at hand.

    Trainers that say they only use "reward based training" are liars, as they are saying theyhave never punished a dog in their lives. If a dog a doing something undesirable, the only way to 'communicate' to a dog that the behaviour is unacceptable is through Punishment, P+ or P-.

    And those that don't fill their tool belt are simply limiting their skils and knowledge, and this can, in turn, waste client money and lose your trust.

    You can't put a nail into a wall when all you have in your tool belt is a tape measure and saw. Sure you can attempt to wack it in with the saw, but it will be ineffective and will probably not go in straight, not to mention the extra effort it till take to get that result.

    Sorry for all the metaphors. It's just how it makes sense to most people.

    Noone knows if Cesar's methods are best and I agree that they should have a "where are they now" type episode, however if the owners didn't do the work, then it would be a waste of time. But, (this may just be my lack of knowledge regarding the tv industry) if he wasn't successful with his methods with dogs then he would not have built a name for himself and in turn not made a show...?

    I'm pretty sure I could not make some friends and say, "hey, let's go make a show about what a great trainer I am" and have it aired anywhere :P

  9. #9

    Default

    Well, I am a supporter to an extent of Cesar Milan. Anyone can make a dog fear them, but he dogs he works with follow him with their tails held high and are genuinely happy and more importantly, relaxed in his presence. I feel that sometimes for the dog, it is probably actually a relief for them to have someone like him come along - some of the owners are just shocking (though often not deliberately) and I can see how a dog could end up very stressed very quickly. He has obiviously spent a lot of time watching dogs interact with each other, and I often see dogs reprimand each other physically but that's not the end of their relationship - and they're certainly not fearing for their lives. I think he pretty much does the same.
    But, I also agree with some of the other stuff I've read. Dogs are dogs and not humans and really that's a good thing. But they're not wolves, and more importantly, in my experience they don't all seem to be the same. Cesar says it doesn't matter what you say dogs don't understand and I think he's wrong there. Another trainer I follow is always saying, bring out the human in your dog, rather than the wolf. I also believe that in case of some dogs and probably some breeds, the dogs are better able to learn from people than they are from dogs. Sammy is an example of this. So with Sammy, a strong bond and positive reinforcement are enough really - he knows he's a dog and he recognises other dogs but for him really it starts and stops with me. Zoe is different though, in only a month that much is very obvious to me. So for me, there are now people dogs and dog dogs. Zoe is a dog dog. And so with her, I'll use more of Cesar's methods (ie training a dog as if I were a dog myself). I don't believe that Cesar ever hurts a dog, discomfort and pain are 2 different things in my book and I think a lot of the discomfort for the dogs is actually mental rather than physical. The only thing that annoys me is when one training method is advocated as being ideal for every dog, or conversely, that one is always wrong.

    Cesar does not work on your every day cases. And if all he knew how to do was scare and hurt dogs, well he wouldn't be able to rehabiliate the super scared ones that can't even come out of the corner when he first meets them. He is just like a dog in a human body - might not be the most advanced method, but if done properly (and most people can't 100% emulate dog behaviour and more importantly, read it which is why their relationships might suffer), well it works obviously (he has no problem dogs does he?) and the dogs are not worse off for it.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Southern NSW
    Posts
    3,784

    Default

    I can say i truly tried to be a R+/P- only trainer for a while...and i felt quite successful, until I worked with my first truly aggressive dog. All the other dogs had been fear aggression....Annabelle did not have an ounce of fear. She took me the path of aversion training.....Proof training. And counter conditioning training with positive punishment.

    I now have control over this dog, she is extremely obedient. I have since her also worked with quite a few other dogs......I now use a lot of R+ with her and some P-, but I will easily return to P+, be it only a check or tap with verbal reminder.

    I would love to have the timing he has..........i don't particularly like his shows, because it is watched by people and the methods are tried by people who have no idea.
    Pets are forever

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •