Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 13

Thread: Stand Rite No Bite

  1. #1

    Default Stand Rite No Bite

    Lately there have been a few stories about the adventures of my staffy.
    Jumping up has been the most difficult behaviour to correct and after 2 years of experience at Dog Training it was definately fustrating.

    Last night was a really quiet night at work and I had some great collegues helping out so I had time to sit down and read my Bark Busters book. A heck of a lot made heaps of sense and even explained why Sui has dominated other dogs in the past. I was also better able to understand her temperament and personality.

    Sui is a dominant type dog, she has already established I am pack leader and that is most evident on the dog training grounds. No matter how many times I corrected, jumping up on people always seemed to be an issue. Here's why:

    1) My correction came just a bit late, I failed to read my dog's body language. I should correct her before jumping not once she has, with a staffy it's very subtle but I did notice she becomes a bit tense before a jump from close observations of today's behaviour.

    2) People crouch down to pat my dog, this sends her the message that they are subissive. It gives her permission to jump and dominate the greeting. Instead people should remain standing up and not touch until my dog has checked them out and sat calmly.

    From today's experimental training session the results were so dramatic. For the first time ever my dog was sitting calmly to be patted by other people! including kids!!!


    I definately highly recommend the Bark Busters Book. It's a great read for anyone keen on understanding canine behaviour.
    The COOLEST Rats and Mice are ICED

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Adelaide
    Posts
    12,583

    Default

    Iced mice

    I disagree with all the dominance submission and correction stuff. This article explains it well.

    Misconceptions of the Mythical Alpha Dog | Dog Star Daily

    My interpetation on what you have done...

    Correcting a dog before it jumps - can land you with a fearful dog - depending on what correction method you use. This could be bad. Your dog may connect meeting new people with unpleasant fearful experiences.

    Preventing a dog from jumping (stopping the reward) is good.
    Rewarding a dog for a calm sit you want instead of jumpnig is better. And your dog will see greetings as good things.

    Your friends bending down to greet people mimics a doggy play bow or invitation to play. So your dog will return the bow with a play attack ie jump all over them, and this is huge fun for the dog and very rewarding, ie the dog will want to do it more and more.


    A web doc on dog play
    http://crl.ucsd.edu/~ahorowit/HorowitzEncycl.doc
    Dog Minds and Dog Play (draft copy)

    Alexandra Horowitz
    Hunter College
    Department of Psychology
    2004

    [from M. Bekoff, Ed. (2004). Encyclopedia of Animal Behavior
    (pp. 835-836). Westport, CT: Greenwood Press]

    A Great Dane, at its shoulders the height of a small horse, spots his target across the lawn: a six-pound Chihuahua almost hidden in the high grasses. With one languorous leap, his ears perked, the Dane arrives in front of the trembling Chihuahua. He lowers his head and bows to the little dog, raising his rear end up in the air, and wagging his tail.

    Instead of fleeing, the Chihuahua mirrors this pose in return, and she leaps onto the head of the Dane, embracing his nose with her tiny paws. They begin to play.
    Getting your friends to wait until your dog is calm before approaching for a pat - rewards the behaviour you want ie the calm sit. Instead of inviting a doggy play session.
    Last edited by Hyacinth; 10-17-2011 at 05:02 PM.

  3. #3

    Default

    Hmmm... not a Bark Busters fan here either.

    Dogs learn to jump up because we teach them that's how they get our attention, not because they are hard dominant dogs trying to push us around.

    Glad you got some results with your training though

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Southern NSW
    Posts
    3,784

    Default

    I don't like Bark busters either........I always come in late just after Hya.....But I agree with her post
    We have a newfie here at present who was over checked and it destroyed his confidence. His owners believed they should be Alpha's. When we got him he crawled everywhere. he was considered dominant by his previous two owners LOL that he is not. We have spent a lot of time gaining his confidence with play and reward. And making things fun. We still train him and he actually jumped up on people, because he misunderstood their reaction. I actually get down to greet him and come face to face with him, he is the first dog I have done that with. Most dogs in the past have just needed to be ignored and rewarded for good behaviour. But it is so much easier to start all of this when they are a puppy and teach them how to greet people, it is our fault if they are jumpers. Yes it is about reading the dog, but also allowing the dog to have opportunities to be right and to get it right and reward. Especially with Rescues who have had DOMINANT owners, people have dominance issues. Always wanting to be in charge. Lukey is coming around, but we only need one gruff person to yell NO!!! and he is on the ground. And there are still people at the Training grounds who do yell. there is no need to be loud. The only part I like about the term dog whisperer is that I like people to be quiet around their dogs. And bark-busters is loud and would destroy the character of a lot of dogs, I hate the can of rocks throwing and chain throwing they do. I have been to a few sessions, because I was seeing a few dogs who had been to Bark-busters. And I wanted to see for myself
    And slightly off topic..........I have only ever met one really dominant dog in all my dog observing years, meaning truly dominant. And he lived up in the NT in a camp. And all the other dogs hated him and were terrified of him, so were the people. And he showed no fear of anyone or anything. I would never like to be like that dog. If that is what it takes to be Alpha, I would rather not.
    I spent a lot of days watching the camp dogs as they were not trained and just lived at the Station in the camps and in large numbers. That was a good place to learn about dog behaviour. Without too much human interference and so many of them were still so friendly and well behaved
    Pets are forever

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    203

    Default

    I have only ever met one truly dominant dog as well newfsie. I have worked with a lot of dogs and this one dog, a rottweiler, was very intimidating. I have a natural confidence around dogs. But a truly dominant dog is something scary and you only ever see them once in a lifetime.

    I don't think jumping is a dominance issue, though I don't see it as the dog thinking the people want to play. It's more that it is simply a habit that they have formed from when they were a pup, no one minds a pup jumping up for cuddles but when they get big and muscley is when the problems start
    "In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." - Edward Hoagland

  6. #6

    Default

    We have tried more PC approaches like ignoring negative behaviour. When she eventually did settle even approaching her or brief touch was all that was needed to get her excited again. Yep even tried the clicker to calm approach, with limited success.
    Yes checking a dog can have a negative impact if the dog isn't rewarded for correct behaviour, always being corrected with no reward confuses the animal. Yes I agree being over dominant can cause fearfullness in a less confident animal. Most dogs in the pound I've seen have developed issues due to a complete lack of training. Many have no idea what a lead is and stress out completely, it's really sad knowing they've probably never been walked in their life! Or worse still, been dragged along by some berk using a check chain as a choker.

    Sui earned a ton of treats for calm behaviour. She had a lot more rewards and cuddles than corrections. Even so after the first check all she needed was verbal correction I hardly used any once she realised she'd get cuddles for calm behaviour. In this case this method worked where others have failed.
    I was very pleased to finally see my dog with a smile from cheek to cheek calmly getting petted by kids.
    The COOLEST Rats and Mice are ICED

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Adelaide
    Posts
    12,583

    Default

    Hi Iced Mice

    I'm not into "ignoring" negative behaviour either, especially stuff that is fun for the dog, because the negative behaviour like jumping up, barking at everything, fence running etc, is its own reward for the dog, and the dog will do it more and more if you don't stop it.

    But I no longer use a check chain or yank corrections to stop the self-rewarding behaviour. I will put Frosty in a front attach harness to restrain her and stop her from jumping up, and then give her other things to do like sit, and reward that.

    So I'd reckon you got results because you stopped the self rewarding behaviours - which is important. You can be gentle about it, just stop it. Susan Garrett says "Positive is not Permissive". I guess that's one way of putting it.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Southern NSW
    Posts
    3,784

    Default

    Yes it is well put if you say not ignoring negative behaviour that you do have to put an end to it. Which is by re-directing or keeping a dog busy with other things (obedience). When i say ignoring , I mean not giving the doh any attention when you arrive home....With all my dogs and many that I have helped training, we find that is the best way to stop the exited/jumping greetings
    Pets are forever

  9. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    Hi Iced Mice

    I'm not into "ignoring" negative behaviour either, especially stuff that is fun for the dog, because the negative behaviour like jumping up, barking at everything, fence running etc, is its own reward for the dog, and the dog will do it more and more if you don't stop it.

    But I no longer use a check chain or yank corrections to stop the self-rewarding behaviour. I will put Frosty in a front attach harness to restrain her and stop her from jumping up, and then give her other things to do like sit, and reward that.

    So I'd reckon you got results because you stopped the self rewarding behaviours - which is important. You can be gentle about it, just stop it. Susan Garrett says "Positive is not Permissive". I guess that's one way of putting it.
    That is almost exactly what doglogic advised me to do. Tried it with the help of my siblings and it didn't work , it was for a while too. Why: because she didn't understand what I wanted her to do/what she was doing wrong, she just kept repeating mistakes she gained reward out of. Even going near her started the adrenaline pumping.
    Funnily enough she does not lunge at people or dogs on our walks, even if dogs are lunging at her. She used to but that was a long time ago. The excitement starts as soon as she realises she's going to be touched. She does not jump on me or my OH.

    Progress has been made recently with her stand for exam which is a little different in that she has been given the "stay" command. It's not in an informal context.

    I should probably clarify I NEVER encouraged my dog to jump. Not even as a pup. It's something I've discouraged and for a long time have been trying to correct. Wheather or not it goes back as far as the breeder I don't know, I know he lied to me about several things. One would imagine the time I've put into her training would outweigh the 8 weeks she spent with a moron.

    I walk her in the dog training club house with a halti, most of the time she's fine but get that one person that decides it's OK to touch her without my consent and they get a face full of slobbery kisses, and she isn't gentle either!!

    At training we use half/semi check chains and yes if used properly they do work, they should never hurt or choke the dog. It was just the timing of corrections and approach that was changed. I made a huge difference in the way people stood to her reaction.


    I also agree some methods mentioned in the book would be useless in some situations. But I've seen many times at dog training there is no one rule fits all.

    At the end of the day wheather it is the right or wrong technique I'm glad the pennies are finally dropping. With a bit of persistance I bet within the month I can finally say my dog doesn't jump up anymore .
    The COOLEST Rats and Mice are ICED

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Adelaide
    Posts
    12,583

    Default

    get that one person that decides it's OK to touch her without my consent and they get a face full of slobbery kisses, and she isn't gentle either!!
    I had to laugh at that bit.

    I know a few dogs like that. And I'm slowly educating them. One is a gorgeous merle bc. Another is a bull terrier. Talk about the headbutt tongue kiss.

    The BC is a very fast learner. Especially if there are treats in it (with owner's permission). The bull terrier - I just give her other things to do eg here play with this tug toy. Stops the headbutt enthusiasm.

    Good timing is really important no matter what method you use. I just find that I get better results and my mistakes are less important using a rewards based system.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •