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Thread: This Guy is a Dead Set Toss Bag!!

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keira & Phoenix View Post
    Well that is your opinion and you are entitled to that.

    I see a dog who tried to use avoidance as it isn't understanding what is happening, and then I see him jerking the dog (correcting) and I see him do this a couple times, I then see the dog (submitting as you call it) laying down on its side and giving calming signals to the handler, I see a dog who is fearful. Wouldn't you be fearful if someone was yanking on your NECK that hard? Do you think that doesn't hurt them? Do you think that can't injure them? The dog trainers I work with have seen dogs with collapsed trachea's due to idiots like this, yanking on choke chains like this.
    I think most of us agree that he is more forceful than he probably should be.

    But if you say that a dog who is giving calming signals because they don't understand what's happening is fearful, then my dog is sometimes fearful too. When in doubt, she might flop over for a belly rub.

    Anywho, you've obviously made up your mind that your interpretation of what is happening in that vid is the only correct one, so no use in continuing this discussion.

  2. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beloz View Post
    Personally I don't read the dog's body language as fear. Submission maybe, but he's only a pup, so not abnormal. Doesn't mean he's frightened IMO. He gives the dog lots of affection and encouragement. If the dog had been traumatised by the experience, you would notice the effect in his behaviour in between the training sessions.
    Ditto! The dog would NOT be sitting there allowing the man to pat her (girl dog ) happily & calmly. It's not fear avoidance at all. If it were the behaviour would be escalating, it's not. It's a dog attempting to get out of what is asked of it.

    As I said, it is very interesting how differently we are reading the same dog. I've seen the same behaviour exhibited by a PP dog working with a different handler trying to get out of what is asked (after doing the same thing every day for 2.5 years with his normal handler). I've seen Batty do it to people other than me. I've seen him pretend to cringe and behave as though he is scared, suck my friend into giving him a cuddle before he sprang up, licked her and ran away from her. He just didn't want to do what she asked. I told her to be firm and what do you know, he did what was asked straight away.

    The dog isn't scared. The check chain wasn't tightening too much and was released as soon as the dog complied with what is asked. The trainer is NOT a good trainer. The video should NOT be on youtube. BUT what the man is doing is NOT cruelty or abuse at all.

    I've seen collapsed trachea's from upward corrections, am yet to see one from a down ward correction.

    Anyone seen how the RAAF deals with a dog that challenges it's handler?? Bet you'd rather the handler was bitten than the dog dealt with quickly....
    Last edited by AngelanBatty; 10-06-2011 at 09:46 AM. Reason: clarifying a point.

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by AngelanBatty View Post
    (girl dog
    You'd think I would know that after she showed her tummy in that vid a few times.

  4. #74
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    Oh Smeagle we are very much on the same page when you say there is not always a one size fits all training for every dog. Hey I even hate seeing One size fits all in clothing!! Why dont they ever fot my fat a$$??

    Anyway, I will agree its result based when training is still RIGHT,FAIR, NOT BLOODY ABUSE..
    Rubylisious


  5. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog_Lover View Post
    Oh Smeagle we are very much on the same page when you say there is not always a one size fits all training for every dog. Hey I even hate seeing One size fits all in clothing!! Why dont they ever fot my fat a$$??

    Anyway, I will agree its result based when training is still RIGHT,FAIR, NOT BLOODY ABUSE..

    I'm glad we agree!

    I think where opinions differ on this subject is on what people class as wrong or abuse. Some people tell you that using any correction is abuse, some people will tell you that using food in training is wrong, some people will swear black and blue that tools like e-collars are abusive yet when used properly they are one of the gentlest and most subtle tools you can use. Hence why I prefer to focus on the results a trainer can get moreso than the methods they use.

  6. #76

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    I like to go with both. I would much prefer a trainer who has a large "tool bag" and doesn't discount any method that may help with the dog itself.

    I think that (as with kids) people are conditioned to call abuse when something really isn't. I.e: A woman who smacks her toddler in the supermarket for causing a ruckus will be labelled an abuser, while one who wheedles and begs and bribes has a 'difficult' child. The first is using a fast, effective method to teach the child right from wrong. The second has taught her child that there are no consequences to acting up, though she believes that she is doing the right thing and who am I or anyone else to tell her differently.

    Someone giving a correction to their dog (not using their fists - that is abuse) will also be called an abuser, w@nka, toss bag etc. While someone dealing with a potentially dangerous dog by bribing, wheedling etc just has a 'difficult' dog.

  7. #77

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    Not touchy Smeagle. I dislike people telling ME what I think, I am me so I would hazard a guess that I know what I mean/think when I say something.

    Beloz -
    Anywho, you've obviously made up your mind that your interpretation of what is happening in that vid is the only correct one, so no use in continuing this discussion.
    Obviously I think what I see was happening in the video is right otherwise I wouldn't be saying it and I have watched the video several times.

    Ange -
    I've seen the same behaviour exhibited by a PP dog working with a different handler trying to get out of what is asked
    Just because a dog knows how to do something with one handler doesn't mean it knows or understands when asked by a different handler, that is why we generalise training in dogs, you don't just train at home and expect the dog to do the behaviour anywhere, the same goes for people, you can't just have one person train a dog and expect it to work with everyone.

    Saying that we would rather see a (RAAF) handler bitten is just plain ridiculous (although I wouldn't mind seeing this guy get a bit of his own back).
    This guy is rough and over the top, what he is doing is out of time and unnecessary. Anyone on this forum could have taken a clicker and a bag of treats out and had the dog dropping in half as much time, and in the end he didn't succeed as far as I am concerned.

    The dog would NOT be sitting there allowing the man to pat her (girl dog ) happily & calmly. It's not fear avoidance at all. If it were the behaviour would be escalating, it's not. It's a dog attempting to get out of what is asked of it.
    Behaviour won't necessarily escalate, it depends on the dog, its temperament, its age, its previous training. And really? I knew a guy whose method of training was giving the dog a good hit, the dog let him pat it afterwards just fine like nothing had just happened, it is a dogs biggest downfall or maybe not, they forgive quickly and easily.
    Last edited by Keira & Phoenix; 10-06-2011 at 10:02 AM.

  8. #78

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    K&P - not telling you what you think, just saying how it came across

  9. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by smeagle View Post
    K&P - not telling you what you think, just saying how it came across
    Fair enough. And I was telling you that is not what I meant by what I said. Misunderstanding and (crappy) text only communication methods

  10. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keira & Phoenix View Post
    Ange -
    Just because a dog knows how to do something with one handler doesn't mean it knows or understands when asked by a different handler, that is why we generalise training in dogs, you don't just train at home and expect the dog to do the behaviour anywhere, the same goes for people, you can't just have one person train a dog and expect it to work with everyone.
    The training is not generalised with PP dogs because if they accept commands from everyone they'd be a pretty useless PP dog wouldn't they?? In saying that the introduction phase is a long one and at that point the dog knew that it had to mind that handler - this is what the point is. Dogs are far more adaptable than people think. I have high expectations of my dog and of the dogs that belong to my housemates. They haven't let me down yet. I'm also the only person in the house who can ask all of the dogs to sit, drop or be quiet etc and they will immediately. No treats, no toys, just for me to praise them. That is WITHOUT me retraining them or generalising any training at all.

    Batty's training has been very highly generalised. He will still manipulate people to get out of what he has been told to do. I've seen it time and time again. The last PR only trainer around him wound up nearly in tears because he would not respond to her at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keira & Phoenix View Post
    Saying that we would rather see a (RAAF) handler bitten is just plain ridiculous (although I wouldn't mind seeing this guy get a bit of his own back).
    This guy is rough and over the top, what he is doing is out of time and unnecessary. Anyone on this forum could have taken a clicker and a bag of treats out and had the dog dropping in half as much time, and in the end he didn't succeed as far as I am concerned.
    So you've seen the way it's dealt with then? I was appalled the first time I did. I nearly fainted truth be told. Then it was explained to me what they were doing and why, how it worked and why it worked. But the challenge from the dog to the handler never happened again. Again, I did see a crappy trainer, but I saw nothing I would class as abuse.

    Possibly yes, possibly no. I certainly wouldn't be saying that until I'd met the dog in question. Clickers can and do fail, even with correct training and charging. He demonstrated his method quite clearly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keira & Phoenix View Post
    Behaviour won't necessarily escalate, it depends on the dog, its temperament, its age, its previous training. And really? I knew a guy whose method of training was giving the dog a good hit, the dog let him pat it afterwards just fine like nothing had just happened, it is a dogs biggest downfall or maybe not, they forgive quickly and easily.
    It wouldn't necessarily, but if the dog is that fearful, worried or stressed then yes it can. It can happen with 8 week old puppies or 10 year old adult dogs.

    I don't know what you mean by a good hit. My perception and yours are clearly different, so I'm not giving an opinion on that.

    Yes they do forgive - not all though. It's also not usually an 'easy' thing for a truly abused dog to forgive. Nerves come into it. There are a lot of people I doubt would know how to handle a completely stable, drivey dog, in fact I'm sure the dog would have the handler obeying commands in no time at all....

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