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Thread: This Guy is a Dead Set Toss Bag!!

  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keira & Phoenix View Post
    Wow then you need to get out more often, because those lunging barking dogs on walks...those are dogs who have been over corrected.
    Wait - what? Every dog that lunges and barks on the leash are doing it purely because they were over corrected?

    Are you serious?

    Any method of training can be used incorrectly. I could give you countless examples of highly aggressive dogs whose behaviour was successfully modified with a training program that at some point involved corrections. Bad 'positive only' training can also make a dog's behaviour worse. Dog training is not black and white, not every dog is the same, nor responds to the same training methods.

    The notion that putting a check chain or any other correctional tool on a dog will turn it aggressive is absurd, at best.
    Last edited by Bec; 10-05-2011 at 10:13 PM.

  2. #62
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    I only watched the video about half way...I cant really see what the fuss is about.

    In fact, I pretty much use minimal praise with Barney when I teach him something new. He is one of those dogs that the minute you say "good boy" (no matter the bloody tone) he immediately stops doing what you want and starts smothering you and getting all excited.

    I didnt see any 'whiplash' type movements. He was pulling the dog to the ground with some pressure on the lead...oh no...thats terrible of him. Granted I didnt watch the whole thing

    IMO, there is nothing wrong with it. If it works then it works....not everyone is into sunshine and rainbows and that doesn't always work anyway.

  3. #63
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    Lala you need to watch the whole thing to get what we are saying.. The start of it in my oppinion is Ok. I have seen that used before and might even use it myself as we are struggling with drop at the moment.

    If you did keep watching you will see the whiplash trust me..
    Rubylisious


  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by smeagle View Post
    Wait - what? Every dog that lunges and barks on the leash are doing it purely because they were over corrected?

    Are you serious?

    Any method of training can be used incorrectly. I could give you countless examples of highly aggressive dogs whose behaviour was successfully modified with a training program that at some point involved corrections. Bad 'positive only' training can also make a dog's behaviour worse. Dog training is not black and white, not every dog is the same, nor responds to the same training methods.

    The notion that putting a check chain or any other correctional tool on a dog will turn it aggressive is absurd, at best.
    Did I say every dog who is put on a check chain or any other correctional tool will turn aggressive? Because I am pretty sure I never said that.

    Nor was I saying EVERY dog who lunges and carries on is caused by corrections but A LOT are. It is dodgy timed corrections coupled with little to no proper socialisation.

    Obviously badly timed R+ can cause issues, if you reward the dog for doing something bad then the dog will repeat that behaviour. I understand this, that is why I train people to use clickers and marker words correctly, timed properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lala View Post
    I only watched the video about half way...I cant really see what the fuss is about.

    In fact, I pretty much use minimal praise with Barney when I teach him something new. He is one of those dogs that the minute you say "good boy" (no matter the bloody tone) he immediately stops doing what you want and starts smothering you and getting all excited.

    I didnt see any 'whiplash' type movements. He was pulling the dog to the ground with some pressure on the lead...oh no...thats terrible of him. Granted I didnt watch the whole thing

    IMO, there is nothing wrong with it. If it works then it works....not everyone is into sunshine and rainbows and that doesn't always work anyway.
    Then you didn't watch it far enough because after his multiple "compulsion" goes at drop, the dog starts using avoidance (IMO because it doesn't understand what he wants) and he then gives the dog a massive yank (correction), corrections like that cause neck injuires. And watch further in the end he hasn't taught the dog a proper drop ie: onto its stomach, he has taught the dog to lie on it's side because it is frightened of him and it is giving him calming signals.

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keira & Phoenix View Post
    Did I say every dog who is put on a check chain or any other correctional tool will turn aggressive? Because I am pretty sure I never said that.

    Nor was I saying EVERY dog who lunges and carries on is caused by corrections but A LOT are. It is dodgy timed corrections coupled with little to no proper socialisation.
    That was hardly clear when you said point blank:

    Quote Originally Posted by Keira & Phoenix View Post
    Wow then you need to get out more often, because those lunging barking dogs on walks...those are dogs who have been over corrected.
    Sounds like a massive generalisation to me. The above is a blanket statement and you didn't say anywhere you meant "most" rather than all - you just said that barking and lunging dogs are the ones that have been over corrected.

    I don't doubt that bad methods can make aggressive dogs WORSE but you are fooling yourself if you think "a lot" of aggression in dogs is caused by badly timed corrections.

    You also said:

    Come to the place where I assist in classes and see all the leash reactive and dog aggressive dogs whose owners come to us for help because they used choke chains and corrections and now their dog is uncontrollable.
    That sounds pretty clear to me that you are saying that putting a check chain on a dog and using corrections causes it to be aggressive and out of control.

    I have seen hundreds of dogs work on check chains that have never displayed aggression or leash reactivity, and even though I don't use CCs or think they are a great tool, it is not ever the tool that causes a dog to become aggressive. It's the person on the end of the leash misusing or abusing it. A well timed and appropriately used correction will not create an aggressive dog nor will it have any negative side effects.

    Personally I prefer to train without physical corrections, but I get incredibly sick of trainers who peddle out the same black and white arguments in training, and that goes for both "sides" of the argument. I care less about the methods used and more about the results you get.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by smeagle View Post
    That sounds pretty clear to me that you are saying that putting a check chain on a dog and using corrections causes it to be aggressive and out of control.

    Personally I prefer to train without physical corrections, but I get incredibly sick of trainers who peddle out the same black and white arguments in training, and that goes for both "sides" of the argument. I care less about the methods used and more about the results you get.
    She didnt say that using check chains causes aggression.. She said that she has worked with dogs that have had issues with aggression after using check chains. So what you said was "CLEARLY SAID" was obviously not to me.

    Once again its not all about the results you get, it is however about how you get them. Regardless of the outcome if you have gone about it the wrong way, if you have abused your power, if you have over stepped the line with physical punishment but have a perfect dog guess what Your still a w@anka and will get NO respect from me.

    Anyone that does respect someone like or turns a blind eye is just as guilty. Abuse, regardless of the outcome of it is still abuse.

    When you use the phrase " I care less about the methods used and more about the results you get" You are making a very broad statement that says to me you agree with ANY training method regardless of how it is done..

    In my house my dog is someone, she is a soul, she has a mind she has rights.
    Rubylisious


  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keira & Phoenix View Post
    Then you didn't watch it far enough because after his multiple "compulsion" goes at drop, the dog starts using avoidance (IMO because it doesn't understand what he wants) and he then gives the dog a massive yank (correction), corrections like that cause neck injuires. And watch further in the end he hasn't taught the dog a proper drop ie: onto its stomach, he has taught the dog to lie on it's side because it is frightened of him and it is giving him calming signals.
    Personally I don't read the dog's body language as fear. Submission maybe, but he's only a pup, so not abnormal. Doesn't mean he's frightened IMO. He gives the dog lots of affection and encouragement. If the dog had been traumatised by the experience, you would notice the effect in his behaviour in between the training sessions.

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by smeagle View Post
    That was hardly clear when you said point blank:



    Sounds like a massive generalisation to me. The above is a blanket statement and you didn't say anywhere you meant "most" rather than all - you just said that barking and lunging dogs are the ones that have been over corrected.

    I don't doubt that bad methods can make aggressive dogs WORSE but you are fooling yourself if you think "a lot" of aggression in dogs is caused by badly timed corrections.

    You also said:



    That sounds pretty clear to me that you are saying that putting a check chain on a dog and using corrections causes it to be aggressive and out of control.

    I have seen hundreds of dogs work on check chains that have never displayed aggression or leash reactivity, and even though I don't use CCs or think they are a great tool, it is not ever the tool that causes a dog to become aggressive. It's the person on the end of the leash misusing or abusing it. A well timed and appropriately used correction will not create an aggressive dog nor will it have any negative side effects.

    Personally I prefer to train without physical corrections, but I get incredibly sick of trainers who peddle out the same black and white arguments in training, and that goes for both "sides" of the argument. I care less about the methods used and more about the results you get.
    I still did not say ALL dogs who are put on choke chains come out aggressive. I said there are dogs I work with who are leash reactive and dog aggressive because they have been on choke chains and over corrected. Never once did I say ALL dogs who have been given corrections on chokers or other correctional tools turn out aggressive. Stop twisting what I am saying to suit what you want. I also said I have seen the RAAF dogs(who are trained this way) and agreed they work well, so right their I agree that not all dogs trained that way are aggressive. Jeez.

    Stop reading so far into what I have said and picking what you want out of it. You see lots of dogs on walks that bark and lunge and a lot are caused by corrections from amateur owners and under socialization. My statement was not meant as a generalization just as a question for someone who said they have never seen a dog come out bad from being corrected.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beloz View Post
    Personally I don't read the dog's body language as fear. Submission maybe, but he's only a pup, so not abnormal. Doesn't mean he's frightened IMO. He gives the dog lots of affection and encouragement. If the dog had been traumatised by the experience, you would notice the effect in his behaviour in between the training sessions.
    Well that is your opinion and you are entitled to that.

    I see a dog who tried to use avoidance as it isn't understanding what is happening, and then I see him jerking the dog (correcting) and I see him do this a couple times, I then see the dog (submitting as you call it) laying down on its side and giving calming signals to the handler, I see a dog who is fearful. Wouldn't you be fearful if someone was yanking on your NECK that hard? Do you think that doesn't hurt them? Do you think that can't injure them? The dog trainers I work with have seen dogs with collapsed trachea's due to idiots like this, yanking on choke chains like this.

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog_Lover View Post

    Once again its not all about the results you get, it is however about how you get them. Regardless of the outcome if you have gone about it the wrong way, if you have abused your power, if you have over stepped the line with physical punishment but have a perfect dog guess what Your still a w@anka and will get NO respect from me.

    Anyone that does respect someone like or turns a blind eye is just as guilty. Abuse, regardless of the outcome of it is still abuse.

    When you use the phrase " I care less about the methods used and more about the results you get" You are making a very broad statement that says to me you agree with ANY training method regardless of how it is done..

    In my house my dog is someone, she is a soul, she has a mind she has rights.

    Do you not agree then that you should use the method that works best for the dog in question? Because that is what I mean when I say I care more about getting the best results than the method used. A good trainer IMO uses a range of methods because no one style of training works for every dog and owner. Training SHOULD be results based, it should be using whatever method will get the best out of your dog rather than plugging away with a method that isn't working because you've decided that's what should work.

    The example you gave earlier about your friend beating his dog is not what I am talking about - that is abuse not training and I bet the results he gets are not "the best". There are so many ways we can train our dogs, even when we're just looking at reward based methods! We cannot possibly say there is only one way to train a dog well. Who wouldn't look at the results a trainer gets as a priority when selecting one? A trainer who only uses PR is no good to me if they don't get excellent results with the dog they train. The methods they use aren't worth much if they aren't capable of getting good results.

    I have a good friend who saw three 'purely positive' trainers for her dog's aggression who all told her he was better off PTS, she ended up seeing a trainer who did use corrections (among other methods) and the dog is no longer aggressive. To those first three trainers, who stuck with the methods they believe are the only ones you should use, having a dog PTS was in their eyes a better option than getting great results using appropriately used corrections. Which option do you think the dog preferred?

    ETA: I am actually quite shocked people think that training shouldn't be about the results you get. Isn't that the primary driving force behind why people would seek help from trainers? To get results? What is the point in using a training method that doesn't get good results? how would you get a good result, if you use the wrong methods?
    Last edited by Bec; 10-06-2011 at 09:41 AM.

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keira & Phoenix View Post
    I still did not say ALL dogs who are put on choke chains come out aggressive. I said there are dogs I work with who are leash reactive and dog aggressive because they have been on choke chains and over corrected. Never once did I say ALL dogs who have been given corrections on chokers or other correctional tools turn out aggressive. Stop twisting what I am saying to suit what you want. I also said I have seen the RAAF dogs(who are trained this way) and agreed they work well, so right their I agree that not all dogs trained that way are aggressive. Jeez.

    Stop reading so far into what I have said and picking what you want out of it. You see lots of dogs on walks that bark and lunge and a lot are caused by corrections from amateur owners and under socialization. My statement was not meant as a generalization just as a question for someone who said they have never seen a dog come out bad from being corrected.

    I am not twisting anything you are saying, just pointing out it wasn't clear. Touchy much?

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