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Thread: This Guy is a Dead Set Toss Bag!!

  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keira & Phoenix View Post
    I see a dog who is using avoidance because it is being bullied and doesn't understand not because it doesn't want to do what it is being "told" to do but because it doesn't understand what it is being "told" to do. Where in the video prior to those corrections does the dog show that it understands what he is trying to force it to do?

    Crawling is one thing, cringing is another. My dog doesn't cringe away from my hand, especially not when asked to do a simple drop. I am sure Batty doesn't cringe when you ask for a drop either.
    For me, nope. Anyone else, ALWAYS. One person let him get away with it, felt sorry for him and he learnt that he can push the limits and get rewarded for it.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keira & Phoenix View Post
    I get what you are saying. And each to their own (to a point obviously) but I have seen no need for corrections or compulsion. I don't believe in the dominance theory (ie dogs trying to be dominant over people).
    I find dominance such a confusing term. I think dogs are often just opportunistic and will try to get what they want any way they can. A bit like toddlers. Or some grown-up people! If they try to get results by intimidating body language and this behaviour gets enforced inadvertately, they will very quickly come across as a dominant dog, I would think? As I said, I find talk about dominance a tad confusing...

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beloz View Post
    I find dominance such a confusing term. I think dogs are often just opportunistic and will try to get what they want any way they can. A bit like toddlers. Or some grown-up people! If they try to get results by intimidating body language and this behaviour gets enforced inadvertately, they will very quickly come across as a dominant dog, I would think? As I said, I find talk about dominance a tad confusing...
    So do I.
    But I do not believe in the general dominance theory that gets around that people like Cesar Millan tout about.

    I think as you do that dogs do what they need to do based on instinct and protecting themselves/their families. Reinforced bad behaviour can quickly start to look like dominance.

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by AngelanBatty View Post
    For me, nope. Anyone else, ALWAYS. One person let him get away with it, felt sorry for him and he learnt that he can push the limits and get rewarded for it.
    I think we may have to agree to disagree on this one.

    I have actually posted it on a private group on fb with some behavioural dog trainers on it, will see what they say.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keira & Phoenix View Post
    I get what you are saying. And each to their own (to a point obviously) but I have seen no need for corrections or compulsion. I don't believe in the dominance theory (ie dogs trying to be dominant over people).
    I suppose we could say the word aggressive more, due to the fact the dog did not have good leardership........For example a dog who get on the owners bed and does not allow the owner on the bed or for the owner to take the dog off the bed. In my understanding of the English language this is the dog being dominant to the owner. But there are some Breeds which are more likely to do this to ineffective owners. i know this from personal experience as i handle and train a lot of dogs. But you are probably correct as these dogs do not dominate me and often only need a little re-training to be easily taken off the bed and such. But that is just being word exact.

    I am not saying he was a good trainer...but I am stating more an opposition against you saying check-chains are just no good or compulsion training. We all have our own opinions and mine is in some training situations it does have a place.

    i am surprised , if you deal with a lot of dogs, that you have not come across a dog that will not be responding to R+/P-. I don't see many, but there have been a few. the last one was a 14 month old staffy....he needed the guiding method and was basically a sill full on dog who had no boundaries. he is wonderful now, loving and happy. he was definitely not damaged during this training and now is out and about more with his owners, because he is so much easier to get along with.
    Pets are forever

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by newfsie View Post
    I suppose we could say the word aggressive more, due to the fact the dog did not have good leardership........For example a dog who get on the owners bed and does not allow the owner on the bed or for the owner to take the dog off the bed. In my understanding of the English language this is the dog being dominant to the owner. But there are some Breeds which are more likely to do this to ineffective owners. i know this from personal experience as i handle and train a lot of dogs. But you are probably correct as these dogs do not dominate me and often only need a little re-training to be easily taken off the bed and such. But that is just being word exact.

    I am not saying he was a good trainer...but I am stating more an opposition against you saying check-chains are just no good or compulsion training. We all have our own opinions and mine is in some training situations it does have a place.

    i am surprised , if you deal with a lot of dogs, that you have not come across a dog that will not be responding to R+/P-. I don't see many, but there have been a few. the last one was a 14 month old staffy....he needed the guiding method and was basically a sill full on dog who had no boundaries. he is wonderful now, loving and happy. he was definitely not damaged during this training and now is out and about more with his owners, because he is so much easier to get along with.
    I know your not saying he was a good trainer. I know you are purely talking about compulsion training in general and used in the "right" circumstances.

    I haven't seen it because the trainers (behavioural dog trainers) I work with would work out WHY the dog is not responding and is shutting down and work on that issue and then go from there.

  7. #47
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    As long as the training works for you and the dog does it really matter what training is used provided it is used correctly?

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by LukeDG View Post
    As long as the training works for you and the dog does it really matter what training is used provided it is used correctly?
    I am not condemning anyone here for their training methods Luke. We are having a healthy discussion on training methods, that is what the forum is for (discussion).

    My biggest issue with THIS sort of training is how much damage it can do to a pet dog with an amateur owner behind them, especially when you have idiots like the guy in this video putting it out there for all to see and not even doing it properly.

  9. #49
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    Just asking and not looking for an argument...Do those trainers NEVER do a quick check on the flat collar or martingale, never use a "enough" or "ugh". Because these are all P+.

    I am also a Behavioural Trainer and I really enjoy working most of the dogs with R+/P-. But I will just never say never and having seen some people do some really good training with problem dogs. As you may have seen in previous posts, i advocate the BAT system a lot and it is R+/P-.......But I also will always remember my Annabelle. The dog who it was suggested by several behaviourists one vet and two from Delta, that we should PTS her. That was not going to happen, so yes she did have some P+. We took a different path with another behaviourist trainer. Like I said, since her I will never say never again.

    And the staffy was on the way to the pound....And they wanted results quick.
    Last edited by newfsie; 10-05-2011 at 04:15 PM.
    Pets are forever

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keira & Phoenix View Post
    I am not condemning anyone here for their training methods Luke. We are having a healthy discussion on training methods, that is what the forum is for (discussion).

    My biggest issue with THIS sort of training is how much damage it can do to a pet dog with an amateur owner behind them, especially when you have idiots like the guy in this video putting it out there for all to see and not even doing it properly.
    I wasn't saying that anyone is condemning anything, it was just a simple statement/question.

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