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Thread: This Guy is a Dead Set Toss Bag!!

  1. #31

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    Yeah sorry I just watched further in than I did and the yanking he is doing after 3:15 is just plain f**ked up! What is the point of that....

    Here we have a guy who has repeated this how many times....6 - 7 and was still having to pull the dog to the ground and then the dog isn't doing it at all and he is giving it corrections. Obviously the method he is using to train the dog is not working. Jeez what an idiot.

    And the end result is a dog who isn't doing a proper drop but is laying down on its side. I am yet to see how this method has worked at all. And the dog with the lady at 4:45 actually cringes as she goes to do the hand signal for down, clearly the dog is used to being corrected and smacked.

    This video makes me angry.
    Last edited by Keira & Phoenix; 10-05-2011 at 03:08 PM.

  2. #32

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    An example: clicker training works beautifully for me with Batty. He works well, figures everything out so fast it's not funny. A friend (ex RAAF handler incidentally) has a full working line, dominant GSD. He is trained using compulsion methods, from a puppy this dog (if it were human) would laugh at anyone trying to bribe it to do anything, or lure etc. I would use it if necessary with my dog, but it's not so I don't have to. But without knowing the dog I'm not going to comment on whether it's the right method or not.

  3. #33
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keira & Phoenix View Post
    Really you have never seen a dog who has had a negative impact from being corrected?

    Wow then you need to get out more often, because those lunging barking dogs on walks...those are dogs who have been over corrected.
    I was talking about MWDs in this case not peoples pet dogs.

  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by LukeDG View Post
    I was talking about MWDs in this case not peoples pet dogs.
    Do you really think they would let the public see an MWD who has not turned out how they wished?

    Sorry Ange don't do dominance theory.

    I have seen breed of dogs who these sort of "trainers" (like the guy in the video) call untrainable, easily trained with R+. Breeds that people call stubborn and dominant.

  5. #35

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    It's funny how differently you & I see the reaction to the last corrections at 3:16 K&P. I see a dog using avoidance to get out of what is asked of it, one that knows (admittedly the guy inadvertantly taught the dog to lay on her side, not on her stomach) what is expected and doesn't want to comply.

    My dog has never been hurt by a person, ever. Yet he will cringe and crawl if I tell him off - not because he is scared but because he thinks that crawling to me will get him out of trouble. Just because a dog cringes doesn't mean it's ever been abused. You'd be amazed at what some dogs will pull to get out of something if they think they can!

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by AngelanBatty View Post
    It's funny how differently you & I see the reaction to the last corrections at 3:16 K&P. I see a dog using avoidance to get out of what is asked of it, one that knows (admittedly the guy inadvertantly taught the dog to lay on her side, not on her stomach) what is expected and doesn't want to comply.

    My dog has never been hurt by a person, ever. Yet he will cringe and crawl if I tell him off - not because he is scared but because he thinks that crawling to me will get him out of trouble.
    I see a dog who is using avoidance because it is being bullied and doesn't understand not because it doesn't want to do what it is being "told" to do but because it doesn't understand what it is being "told" to do. Where in the video prior to those corrections does the dog show that it understands what he is trying to force it to do?

    Crawling is one thing, cringing is another. My dog doesn't cringe away from my hand, especially not when asked to do a simple drop. I am sure Batty doesn't cringe when you ask for a drop either.

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keira & Phoenix View Post
    Do you really think they would let the public see an MWD who has not turned out how they wished?

    Sorry Ange don't do dominance theory.

    I have seen breed of dogs who these sort of "trainers" (like the guy in the video) call untrainable, easily trained with R+. Breeds that people call stubborn and dominant.
    I'm not talking dominance theory. I'm talking proper "leader" dogs - if that is a more suitable way of putting it.

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    QLD, Sunshine Coast
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keira & Phoenix View Post
    Do you really think they would let the public see an MWD who has not turned out how they wished?

    Sorry Ange don't do dominance theory.

    I have seen breed of dogs who these sort of "trainers" (like the guy in the video) call untrainable, easily trained with R+. Breeds that people call stubborn and dominant.
    i've been on base whilst training is being conducted...my mentor ia a SFSGT in the RAAF with 27 years experience with the MWDs (he managed to get me a visitors pass as he knows this is what i want to do in 18 months) Obviously dogs fail assessment and go on to be pet dogs or security dogs, dogs at RAAF shows are commonly undergoing training still and are not passed MWDs. Some dogs don't respond to the training or dont have the drives that a MWD needs to have to be good at its job. Obviously they aren't going to show you a dog that doesn't do what is expected of it, i wouldn't show a house that i built that i thought was crap.

  9. #39
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    Well it is part of my tool box........I do not use it on puppies or quiet happy young untrained dog. but i do use it on aggressive or dominant dogs or dogs that have been badly lure trained (not) and become dominant.
    I have four dogs and one had to be trained in a very similar method........But as soon as she was co-operative we went back to R+. But occasionally she still need to know that what she wants to do will be corrected quickly and promptly. She was not trained form puppy.
    His dog i think is a puppy and even for older style training, which my father used to use (and he did train dogs for the RAAF and Police) his correction is severe and it really does not have to be that snappy/chokey'
    The check-chain should always be used form the loose position and given a quick snap and release, not a continuous choke. It is NOT a choker. that is what happens when people do things incorrectly. I have no issue with a dog being guided into the positions, such as drop and sit. It can be quietly done too, with even some food rewards at the end.
    lead aggression is mostly caused by tight leads from owners and it does not even require people to use lead corrections. Many luring dogs (R+/P-) become lead aggressive. it is what people do with their dogs, they never give a slack/loose lead, they send their nervousness down the lead too. Part of the problem too is avoidance, dog gets aggressive with dog, people leave with aggressive dog or the dog who had been aggravated too is taken away. Dog who was being aggressive goes "wow, if I lunge at the dogs I do not like, they leave" There is the beginning. that is why we have to desensitise our dogs and not avoid. Teach them to cope. there are many different ways to do this. The BAT system is amazing for dogs to learn to cope as long as the handler has good timing.
    Luring and R+/P- has just as many problems. Some dominant dogs (due to bad training, breed or genetic) do not suit this at all.
    There are some dogs i train with, where I tell the person to change the way they train to a more P+ method. You have to take on each dog as an individual, start with the softest and sometimes change your method.
    I must admit, he would not be a trainer I pick, because I think his corrections are badly timed and often kept on too long. And that is not beneficial.
    But if you ever get the chance to observe a good compulsion trainer, you will be amazed at how it looks and how it most likely will not offend......
    Last edited by newfsie; 10-05-2011 at 03:28 PM.
    Pets are forever

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by newfsie View Post
    Well it is part of my tool box........I do not use it on puppies or quiet happy young untrained dog. but i do use it on aggressive or dominant dogs or dogs that have been badly lure trained (not) and become dominant.
    I have four dogs and one had to be trained in a very similar method........But as soon as she was co-operative we went back to R+. But occasionally she still need to know that what she wants to do will be corrected quickly and promptly. She was not trained form puppy.
    His dog i think is a puppy and even for older style training, which my father used to use (and he did train dogs for the RAAF and Police) his correction is severe and it really does not have to be that snappy/chokey'
    The check-chain should always be used form the loose position and given a quick snap and release, not a continuous choke. It is NOT a choker. that is what happens when people do things incorrectly. I have no issue with a dog being guided into the positions, such as drop and sit. It can be quietly done too, with even some food rewards at the end.
    lead aggression is mostly caused by tight leads from owners and it does not even require people to use lead corrections. Many luring dogs (R+/P-) become lead aggressive. it is what people do with their dogs, they never give a slack/loose lead, they send their nervousness down the lead too. Part of the problem too is avoidance, dog gets aggressive with dog, people leave with aggressive dog or the dog who had been aggravated too is taken away. Dog who was being aggressive goes "wow, if I lunge at the dogs I do not like, they leave" There is the beginning. that is why we have to desensitise our dogs and not avoid. Teach them to cope. there are many different ways to do this. The BAT system is amazing for dogs to learn to cope as long as the handler has good timing.
    Luring and R+/P- has just as many problems. Some dominant dogs (due to bad training, breed or genetic) do not suit this at all.
    There are some dogs i train with, where I tell the person to change the way they train to a more P+ method. You have to take on each dog as an individual, start with the softest and sometimes change your method.
    I must admit, he would not be a trainer I pick, because I think his corrections are badly timed and often kept on too long. And that is not beneficial.
    But if you ever get the chance to observe a good compulsion trainer, you will be amazed at how it looks and how it most likely will not offend......
    I get what you are saying. And each to their own (to a point obviously) but I have seen no need for corrections or compulsion. I don't believe in the dominance theory (ie dogs trying to be dominant over people).

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