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Thread: This Guy is a Dead Set Toss Bag!!

  1. #111

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    When I was training my Crested to stack he was completely uninterested in toys, food and praise, he didn't respond to "uh-uh's" or negative training, the key with him was simply repetition... We just kept going over and over and over until the penny dropped. Yep it took a long time to train him but he does it perfectly now every time.
    My Poodles will do anything for food so they are easy.

  2. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by AngelanBatty View Post
    Compulsion training, using aversives such as an e-collar or pinch collar etc.
    But e-collars are not old fashioned? They are pretty new technology, especially the models available now, and low stim e-collar training is hardly old fashioned or from 20-30 years ago.

    I see the way some trainers I would consider old fashioned use tools like prongs or issue corrections, that I would not consider the correct use of the tool. But it's not about the tool, it's about the method and attitude of the handler. IMO those trainers give people who do use those tools properly a bad name. Using a prong collar or e-collar or giving a dog a correction does not mean being heavy handed with the dog or that you are using old fashioned methods.

  3. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by smeagle View Post
    But e-collars are not old fashioned? They are pretty new technology, especially the models available now, and low stim e-collar training is hardly old fashioned or from 20-30 years ago.

    I see the way some trainers I would consider old fashioned use tools like prongs or issue corrections, that I would not consider the correct use of the tool. But it's not about the tool, it's about the method and attitude of the handler. IMO those trainers give people who do use those tools properly a bad name. Using a prong collar or e-collar or giving a dog a correction does not mean being heavy handed with the dog or that you are using old fashioned methods.
    Evidently a poor way of explaining the way I think for you.

    I personally consider clicker/reward/marker training a new thing. I consider compulsion training and applied aversives old fashioned in their style.

    Not the tools themselves, but the theories behind them IYKWIM. If not, sorry I can't explain it to you at the moment because I'm too tired.

  4. #114
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    clicker/reward/marker training a new thing
    This is really sad because Pavlov (classical conditioning) published in around 1900, or maybe earlier, and Skinner (operant conditioning) in around 1936. And of course the first people to get really excited about it were the military for "brain washing". Operant conditioning works quite well on humans but I don't know why we don't use it on our prison populations more effectively.

    Not sure when the research about fallout (unintended consequences of punishment) were published. There was something about monkeys attacking the new monkey attempting to do something that would get them all punished, and there was that student prison experiment 1960's? Very scary stuff but explained how Abu Graib went wrong.

    I know they've been using reward based training in zoos for a long time, but yes, still new in traditional dog obedience training clubs. And that's especially sad. I don't know how they missed out.

    Then again psychology is still considered mumbo jumbo by a lot of medical professionals and scientists.

  5. #115

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    It truly is sad, and more people should have taken notice earlier. But a question that I am continually asking myself is this: Is there a connection between the rise in popularity of the so called 'purely positive' methods and the rise in dog incidents connected? Are we, as a society, putting too much pressure on people to use methods that won't be effective for their pets?

    Purely rhetorical questions, but something that's had me thinking for a long while now.

    I much prefer the gentler methods - but I don't discount others. I try to learn everything I can about all methods before making any judgement call on that method.

  6. #116
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    Personally, I think most aggressive dogs are owned by people who don't train their dogs at all. Or if they do, they are inconsistent, regardless of what method they use.

  7. #117

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    Meanwhile the ones I know, the owners refuse to correct them for bad behaviour, instead constantly try to 'redirect' them to something else & the dog does whatever the hell it wants to do. Heaven forbid you tell them that you don't want their dog jumping all over you and ask they do something about it. Oh and even better, the ones that you mustn't disturb precious when it's on the couch. She just growls because its her comfy place.... Some training is better than none IMO

  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by AngelanBatty View Post
    Meanwhile the ones I know, the owners refuse to correct them for bad behaviour, instead constantly try to 'redirect' them to something else & the dog does whatever the hell it wants to do. Heaven forbid you tell them that you don't want their dog jumping all over you and ask they do something about it. Oh and even better, the ones that you mustn't disturb precious when it's on the couch. She just growls because its her comfy place.... Some training is better than none IMO
    When I was a kid, my mum came home with a Pekinese one day. Had belonged to an old lady who had to move into a nursing home. And came with instructions like: "Never touch her when she's under a chair or table or she'll bite." My mum obviously wasn't the brightest, but she was a softie.

    After the dog had bitten everyone in the family multiple times, my mum gave her to someone without kids.

    I must add that we had a couple of dogs when I grew up and no one in my family then knew a thing about dogs or training. We managed to turn a cocker spaniel into a biter at one stage. Very sad.

  9. #119
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    there's no such thing as "purely positive". If the dog doesn't do/attempt the required task - and you withhold reward/praise/treat, then that's a negative training technique.

    I do think it goes to hell quite often because the technical terms used to define the quadrants for operant conditioning are confusing and don't specify the strength/power of the technique. Ie if your dog likes roast chicken better than kibble but will work for either, it all goes in the "positive re-inforcement" quadrant. Withholding the treat goes in the "negative punishment" quadrant and hitting or zapping the dog goes in the "positive punishment" quadrant and turning the zap off - goes in the "negative re-inforcement". I hope I got that right. Ie positive refers to adding something, negative refers to taking something away and punishment refers to something that decreases the behaviour and re-inforcement refers to something that encourages or increases the behaviour.

    So the people calling themselves "purely positive" aren't purely positive. Because every time they with hold a treat or remove a distraction or stop a dog doing something it enjoys (like digging in the garden) - they're "negative".

    Same as people who say they never punish a dog.

    Anyway techical terms aside -
    I think that Susan Garrett has it fairly right when she talks about positive is not the same as permissive. And I like to talk about reward based training.

    And I'm not sure that dog training is any better or worse than it ever was. I think a whole lot of people who have never been in a dog family or have forgotten how to deal with a dog, are getting them and treating them like they have the same understanding of the English language as an adult human brought up in an English speaking household.

    Dogs are pretty adaptable but they're not that adept. And they're no better than a small child when it comes to understanding why you're mad at them 6 hours after they peed on the carpet and forgot about it.

    I think too many people think they get a guide dog or movie star dog out of the pet shop window and don't know what to do when it all goes to hell. Or they go to dog school and their dog is embarrassing so instead of working harder, they quit. People looking at my dog now, are amazed that she used to be just as embarrasing and crazy as their dog. And she even still has her moments.

  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beloz View Post
    Personally, I think most aggressive dogs are owned by people who don't train their dogs at all. Or if they do, they are inconsistent, regardless of what method they use.
    I agree, to say that most aggressive dogs are from people that use purely positive methods is actually laughable to me.
    Rubylisious


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