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Thread: This Guy is a Dead Set Toss Bag!!

  1. #101

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    I use "uh-uh" when clicker training a new behavior (shaping). If my dog is doing something wrong I don't hesitate to correct him with his martingale collar. If he doesn't have his collar he gets a short sharp growl.

    Never say never until you've seen it all.... No-one has ever seen it all so no-one should ever say never....

  2. #102
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    The dog is the one who decides what it finds most aversive and this would differ for every dog
    This is true.

    But you can train a head collar to be rewarding. But ultimately I wouldn't want to be using it all the time. We're both pretty happy with the front attach harness but Frosty will still stick her head where she shouldn't when she's wearing it.

  3. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    This is true.

    But you can train a head collar to be rewarding. But ultimately I wouldn't want to be using it all the time. We're both pretty happy with the front attach harness but Frosty will still stick her head where she shouldn't when she's wearing it.
    I think you can condition a dog to wearing one (as you can with any tool), however doing so is easier on some dogs than others and some dogs will never be suitable for head collars nor adjust to wearing one. Conditioning a dog to wear a head collar also doesn't stop it from being aversive once it's in use, otherwise it wouldn't work. Head collars are just one tool of many we have to choose from and IMO a reputable trainer would select the best tool for the dog and handler.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by smeagle View Post
    You do realise that there is more to training than "old school methods" and clicker training though right?

    The video was a bad example of training full stop regardless of the methods used.




    I like my dogs to work for life rewards in the house etc however, there's a reason top level competitors and trainers with highly reliable and well trained dogs use primary reinforcers like food and toys.

    Personally first and foremost I want my dogs to work with a great attitude, you only get this with reward based training methods, what reinforcer you use of course depends on the dog. If the best a trainer can get out of a dog is what we saw in that video clip, then I'm not interested in using their methods to train my (or others) dogs.

    I think you'd also struggle to train complex exercises and proof them to a high degree relying on "respect and obedience".
    Oh yeah, of course. I am just using them as an example. Clicker or marker training is my preferred method.

  5. #105

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    For those who say you would 'never' try the older methods - what are you going to do when you get a dog that the reward training doesn't work for??

  6. #106

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    I use some older methods, but I don't try to break my dogs neck or kick them like a certain famous dog trainer.

  7. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by AngelanBatty View Post
    For those who say you would 'never' try the older methods - what are you going to do when you get a dog that the reward training doesn't work for??
    What are 'older methods'?

  8. #108
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    AngelanBatty

    In the classical and operant conditioning - a reward is defined as something that giving it to the dog will increase the desired behaviour. So if your "reward" isn't working - you've got the wrong reward.

    Some rewards work best when there are fewer distractions.

    For most dogs, if you skip a meal - food becomes rewarding ie they will work for food.
    or if you're going to be cruel about it, withhold water and use that as a reward.
    or the owner or whatever.

    If the dog is frightened - then safety or security might be its reward but best to work where the dog is not frightened.

    Pay attention to what the dog does instead of working with you, ie most distractions can be used as rewards.

  9. #109
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    A trainer once advised me to use chasing rabbits as a reward for my dog doing a recall when she was about to chase rabbits.

  10. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by smeagle View Post
    What are 'older methods'?
    Compulsion training, using aversives such as an e-collar or pinch collar etc.

    I'd consider clicker training & reward training (in the upbeat happy sense) new forms as they have only been gaining radically in their poppularity over the last 20 or 30 or so years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    AngelanBatty

    In the classical and operant conditioning - a reward is defined as something that giving it to the dog will increase the desired behaviour. So if your "reward" isn't working - you've got the wrong reward.

    Some rewards work best when there are fewer distractions.

    For most dogs, if you skip a meal - food becomes rewarding ie they will work for food.
    or if you're going to be cruel about it, withhold water and use that as a reward.
    or the owner or whatever.

    If the dog is frightened - then safety or security might be its reward but best to work where the dog is not frightened.

    Pay attention to what the dog does instead of working with you, ie most distractions can be used as rewards.
    For some dogs the reward is the removal of an aversive (eg: downward pressure on the neck when training a drop, the e-collar being turned off, pressure relieved on the pinch collar etc).

    Some dogs couldn't give a rats behind about food after 3 days without, let alone after missing one meal. They couldn't give a rats behind about their handlers praise, couldn't care less about toys/prey items if they tried. What does that leave? The removal of that aversive then becomes the reward. When correctly used, the dog learns that if a command is not followed, an aversive is applied (they are made uncomfortable), if they still do not comply then the pressure from the aversive is multiplied. If they do comply, the pressure is released and the dog is praised.

    I am actually very well read in the subject of classical and operant conditioning, but I have also educated myself on the less 'fashionable' methods too. Though I did not decide to do that until I had exposure to the MWD's, the knowledge is still understood.

    I am not saying that I like the 'older' methods. Merely that in some cases it is a valid training option from those experienced enough to have correct timing and the knowledge of when such aversives should be applied.

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