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Thread: Triangle of Temptation

  1. #51
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    There is actually no stay command.

    I, personally, do not train 'stay'. I train the command (sit, drop, whatever) and train a release. This is the equivalent of stay- it means 'you do not move until I give another command, or release you to your own time'. But my dogs have no 'stay' command. The word means nothing to them.

    TOT is similar- no stay, just a release on focus.

    Does that help?

  2. #52
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    I still have to use "Stay" or "wait" as I was corrupted by dog obedience school which didn't focus on the "release" command. Using a release command requires you to remember to free your dog up after you've given it a "controlled position" command eg "sit", "drop", "stand", "crate" (get in your crate), "bed", "mat" etc.

    It's more responsibility for the owner.

    But if my dog moves before I release her for dinner, I put her back in the position she was supposed to be in, and make her stay there until I give her permission to eat her dinner.

    I've got a bunch of release commands.

    "Go" - go find the most fun thing - also for starting an agility sequence.
    "Go play" - go do anything you feel like especially playing with other dogs.
    "Go sniff"
    "Go say hello" - if there is someone or some dog around to greet.
    and "on special" - permission to eat dinner.

  3. #53

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    So essentially its a sit/lay till you say go. That makes more sense. How do you train it? Sorry just humour me a bit, I think I get it just need to be sure.

  4. #54
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    sit - treat - go - treat. Sit (1 & 2 &) treat, - go - treat. Ie you start right next to the dog where you can control what the dog does, and you reward it heaps for holding position, and you reward the release too. Sometimes it's better to reward the release with a lesser value treat/game than the sit, but if your dog doesn't move when you say "go", then you need to up the treat for "going".

    So I practice "start line stays". I put my dog in a sit or stay, and I reward that and walk around her and reward for staying. And then I step off about 1m (for beginners) and then I say "go" and run away waving a tug at her. She usually moves then.

    But since she's not a beginner at this, she can only move if I say "go", so if she moves (cos I ran and waved the toy at her and didn't say go), I just put her back where she was and try again. And if she gets it wrong three times, I go back a step and make it a little bit easier for her to get right Ie I say "go" and then run. once she's got exploding after me going well, I try a few "go" without running, but I still wave the toy at her after she's taken off.

    The beautiful thing about TOT, is that you are using most dog's favourite thing as the reward for holding the stay and for the release ie they're very keen to release to eat their dinner.

    So read the instructions. Initially the instructions say "tie your dog up" and only release when the dog is doing a nice sit stay tied up.

    I skipped that bit. It would have been handy at club if she could have done a nice tie up, but since tying your dog up and leaving it is illegal in SA and a potential health hazard for your dog (open to approach by undesirable people and dogs). I crate trained my dog instead.

    So start close to your dog, with short short time durations and build up from there.

  5. #55
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    To use TOT in it's 'pure' form:

    Put lead on dog. Have dog by your side. Hold lead in your hand. (The back tie is ONLY there initially for handlers who can't hang on to the dog and need both hands to follow the steps. If you have an explosively excited dog ripping at your arms to get to the food, you have two choices; use a back tie or move the food further out- so not an equilateral triangle anymore).

    Put bowl of food (or favourite toy, or whatever your dog really likes) in front. You, the dog, and the food form the three points of a triangle.

    Now wait.

    When dog looks at you (for even a brief second), release dog to food by dropping lead. Do not waste time unclipping or whatever.

    AS SOON AS DOG GIVES YOU FOCUS, LET DOG HAVE FOOD.

    The next steps are to increase duration of focus, then distance.

    In the start you dont command sit, down or anything. That comes later. This is a program to teach FOCUS. This teaches dog to look to you as his leader for permission. Good things ONLY come via you.

    Once the focus has started to occur naturally and the dog understands to look to you, the program can then, and only then, become adaptable to training 'duration' (stay).

    BUT IT IS PRIMARILY FOR BUILDING FOCUS, I cannot stress this enough.

    Now, Steve has a fully simple, step by step article on his website explaining this in basic detail. Written in crayon, if you like.

    If you were to read it, then come back and ask questions, I'd be more than happy to help. As it stands, via the questions you are asking, I KNOW you've not read it.
    Last edited by Villain & Flirtt; 06-13-2011 at 06:14 AM.

  6. #56

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    Ok cool thanks I am pretty sure I get it now

  7. #57
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    V&F: Put lead on dog. Have dog by your side. Hold lead in your hand. (The back tie is ONLY there initially for handlers who can't hang on to the dog and need both hands to follow the steps.
    S: actually the back tie does a lot more than that and I think it is pretty important first step.

    Back tie means the dog doesn't see you as the reward restriction or remover, but the reward giver.

    Back tie also allows handler to move outside of dogs peripheral vision so dog must disengage looking at the food and clearly signal the dog looks at handler.

    It also helps allow the dog to go into drive without being subdued or dominated by the handler.

    One other benefit is that the dogs can associate good things with being back tied quietly, helps later on 100's of ways.
    Last edited by k9force; 06-14-2011 at 08:44 AM.
    Steve Courtney, K9 Pro - The K9 Professionals

    www.k9pro.com.au

    Official Forum Trainer and Behaviourist

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by k9force View Post
    S: actually the back tie does a lot more than that and I think it is pretty important first step.

    Back tie means the dog doesn't see you as the reward restriction or remover, but the reward giver.

    Back tie also allows handler to move outside of dogs peripheral vision so dog must disengage looking at the food and clearly signal the dog looks at handler.

    It also helps allow the dog to go into drive without being subdued or dominated by the handler.

    One other benefit is that the dogs can associate good things with being back tied quietly, helps later on 100's of ways.
    All true.... Ta Steve :-)

    Was just trying to keep it simple, but good points!!

  9. #59

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    Benji is picking it up pretty quick, nearly looks at me straight away trying to get him to sit and stay sitting while I undo his leash, and not move till I say go

  10. #60
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    Can i ask how you would do this with a dog, i.e mine, who does not get excited over food?
    I am not sure if this is normal or she is just weird lol but she is not motivated by food what so ever. Dinner time, breakfast or "snack" time mean nothing to her, even when i put the bowl down she does not care, she walks off and comes back to it when she feels, normally around ten minutes later, she also doesnt eat it in one go so i have had to resort to taking it away and giving her some more an hour later, its actually REALLY annoying me. Breakfast time she does not do this as she has her pet mince in the morning and she LOVES her pet mince..

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