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Thread: Triangle of Temptation

  1. #41
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    Just after some general info and opinions, I am trying to get sasha to the point where I dont have to worry her running when she gets out of the gate, or going to the dog park and not having to have a lead on... she is very good she doesnt "run" as such but she sticks her nose into the ground and just keeps walking and explring with no recall.

    any ideas??

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by doglifetraining View Post
    This post was very interesting and great for helping people with some 'life skills' with their dogs. And I love that you are advocating the use of a gentle method. However, isnt it time to move on from the dominance theory of dog training? It arose out of research done in the 1920's and on unrelated captive wolves (no hunting, no stimulation and no genetic interest- of course there is going to be tension). It has since been proven that the 'alpha' wolves are actually the breeding pair, similar to a mother and father of a human family. They are dominant but only because they are mum and dad and the rules of the family are much more flexible that previously thought.

    It has also been proven that dogs (not wolves, and after all thats the animal we live with) do not live in packs, they come together to mate and sometimes to hang out. They dont raise their young together in family structures, nor do they hunt- dogs are mainly scavengers, you can see this in many third world countries (and even in our own dogs).

    So why do we keep advocating such roles as 'alpha'? Maybe it's easy to blame many problems on dominance- jumping, humping, snatching food. When instead it could be- excitement, displacement behaviour, and hunger.

    I may have opened a can of worms by posting this but I think, as professionals, it is our job to be well informed of current research and change our way of thinking (i used to use dominance theory) to help our clients and their dogs. If you would like to know more here are a couple of articles you may want to read.....

    Dominance and Your Dog | doglifetraining.com

    Dominance and The Wolf | doglifetraining.com

    If you need further proof, watch your own multi dog house household, not all resources are wanted by one dog. Dog A may be protective over his bed, but not care less about a ball. Dog B may love the ball but may not care much for his bed. So how can we treat only one dog as 'alpha' when the 'alpha' role changes? You can see how it could confuse many dogs and owners.

    Anyway, I just wanted to get you all thinking and open to some new research.
    Could that research by Daniels and Bekoff have been taken out of context or misinterpreted ?

    A case of dogs adapting to a constant easy food supply, not so much a study of natural dog behaviour as a study of dogs adapting to their environment ?

    In many areas bordering national parks in Australia I can assure you that wild dogs do indeed live and hunt in packs.
    The problem is so bad in some areas that graziers are being forced to lock their sheep in sheds at night to guard against losses, with many leaving the industry or changing to stock less vulnerable to sheep.
    I could see in third world country where most of the country is used as a rubbish dump, wild dogs would have an endless smorgasbord of food and would not need to form packs, but in Australia dumps are fenced and the waste is very controlled to the point where dogs don't have access to the food.
    I'm not stating that wild dogs will always gravitate towards forming a pack, but it can and does happen and I've seen several times where there is a dominant dog.


    How that relates to the dynamics of a human-dog relationship I don't know. I've seen some dogs respond seemingly well to the "dominant" approach (I feel the dogs would have done better with a different approach but it seemed OK for the owners and the dogs)
    but I have also seen dogs that have been turned into cowering nervous wrecks without the capacity to think for themselves when trained with that theory too.

    Personally I like to have my dogs attentive and willing to please, almost to the point where they are trying pre-empt what I want, something that doesn't normally happen with dogs trained as submissive servants.
    Although if the dog gets seriously out of line I will enforce some dominance to pull it into line and most dogs respond to that well. It can't be done in anger and you can't lose control but there are times when the best thing for a dog can be for it's owner to be strong and assertive to the point where the dog knows it's place.

  3. #43
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    In my uneductaed view, I have always believed that my dogs understand I am not part of the 'pack' so I feel that following the different things that have been said over the years about pack leadership and humans is futile.

    I recall being told things such as - not letting your dog enter through a doorway before you, feeding yourself first and then your dog and so on.

    I believe dogs understand we are a different species. I believe that we must be dominant, but that we are not part of the canine pack and nor do they see us as this, but as a different species that is more dominant.

    Dogs may form packs, but we are not part of it.
    A pessimist sees the glass as half empty;
    An optimist sees the glass as half full;
    A realist just finishes the damn thing and refills it.

  4. #44
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    I have to say I both agree and disagree with you, Anne.

    I remain convinced that dogs know we are a different species, however, I believe dogs (as opposed to wolves and dingos- to some degree) have learnt to accept us into a pack. No, it is not a natural dog pack, but it is a pack nonetheless.

    And a pack is run by good authoritarian principles; rules, boundaries, consistency, reward/ reinforcement for good behavior (however that is defined by the individual pack) and consequences for undesirable behavior. And in that order, too (which is a whole 'nother story based in behavior modification theory)...

    Sort of like the 'ideal' way to run a human family, too. Though I shudder when some dog trainers advocate 'parenting' dogs, cause even though I understand they mean the 'ideal' parenting model... I'm sure it is dometimes understood as 'treat dogs like children'.......

    If you are a Facebook-er, check out the Anthrozoology Research Group page- there's some fascinating stuff there about the different ways wolves, dingos and dogs see, interact with, and characterize humans.

  5. #45
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    Add; I think 'pack' is a word that has a similar meaning to 'family'... But that's my opinion only.

  6. #46
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    I was hoping we wouldn't hijack this thread with relatively unrelated discussion...

    By having the pack/alpha/dominance discussion in a separate thread.

    http://www.dogforum.com.au/dog-train...ving-dogs.html

  7. #47

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    Is there any chance of getting videos of this TOT to help clarify some parts for the newbs (me)?
    This would be really appreciated.

  8. #48
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    Acn22

    What parts do you need clarifying and how much would such a dvd be worth to you?

    Personally I think a video of my dog doing a sit stay in front of her dinner bowl is pretty boring. And my dog feeding area is too embarrasing to show to the world on the net. Ie there's a lot of clutter.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acn22 View Post
    Is there any chance of getting videos of this TOT to help clarify some parts for the newbs (me)?
    This would be really appreciated.
    If you go to K9Pro website (K9 Pro The K9 Professionals; Dog Training and Behaviour Site), Steve has a terrific explanatory article with pictures (I know cause he generously allowed me to use his stuff elsewhere) that will show you exactly what TOT is.

    The 'triangle' is made up of the placement of you, your dog, and the food bowl (the 'temptation'). The rest is handling skills designed to elicit/promote/reward focus and attention from your dog.

    I suppose a DVD would be easy, but Hy's right.... Boring, lol. I'd be willing to bet Steve has one tucked away somewhere.
    Last edited by Villain & Flirtt; 06-12-2011 at 02:15 AM.

  10. #50

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    Don't really need dvd just a few videos there is a few on you tube I just wanna see people doing u2 don't quite get how ya can use the stay command.

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