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Thread: Triangle of Temptation

  1. #31

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    bumped thread for poochlover

  2. #32

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    Thanks for sharing this information :-)

    1. What does it mean if my dog circles "the bowl so it may watch you when it eats..."?

    2. My dogs won't eat while I am there/near them. Is this acknowledging me as Alpha?

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Kurrajong / Hawkesbury
    Posts
    189

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    Quote Originally Posted by learning View Post
    Thanks for sharing this information :-)

    1. What does it mean if my dog circles "the bowl so it may watch you when it eats..."?

    2. My dogs won't eat while I am there/near them. Is this acknowledging me as Alpha?
    K9: No this means there is something amiss with the bond & trust your dog has with you....
    Steve Courtney, K9 Pro - The K9 Professionals

    www.k9pro.com.au

    Official Forum Trainer and Behaviourist

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Near Newcastle, NSW
    Posts
    4,215

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    Quote Originally Posted by four socks View Post
    bumped thread for poochlover
    Good bump.

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Queensland
    Posts
    1,822

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    Bump

    Given how regularly this is recommended, would it be possible to get this stickied please?

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    melbourne australia
    Posts
    3,082

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    I joined a club once, that did clicker training with a bloody whistle!
    The noise was dreadful. I have no idea what the trainers were thinking of. But it suited me to take my dog along and teach him some manners around crowds of dogs under much noise distraction. And 2 panadol and cuppa, and my nerves were right as rain in no time.

    Clickers are much quieter. But, a piece of equipment none the less.

    As a personal choice, i use my voice.
    But i do remember stumbling over my words to begin with. So if i had to, id get used to a clicker just as easily as using words. its just that i would then need more equipment.

  7. #37

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    This post was very interesting and great for helping people with some 'life skills' with their dogs. And I love that you are advocating the use of a gentle method. However, isnt it time to move on from the dominance theory of dog training? It arose out of research done in the 1920's and on unrelated captive wolves (no hunting, no stimulation and no genetic interest- of course there is going to be tension). It has since been proven that the 'alpha' wolves are actually the breeding pair, similar to a mother and father of a human family. They are dominant but only because they are mum and dad and the rules of the family are much more flexible that previously thought.

    It has also been proven that dogs (not wolves, and after all thats the animal we live with) do not live in packs, they come together to mate and sometimes to hang out. They dont raise their young together in family structures, nor do they hunt- dogs are mainly scavengers, you can see this in many third world countries (and even in our own dogs).

    So why do we keep advocating such roles as 'alpha'? Maybe it's easy to blame many problems on dominance- jumping, humping, snatching food. When instead it could be- excitement, displacement behaviour, and hunger.

    I may have opened a can of worms by posting this but I think, as professionals, it is our job to be well informed of current research and change our way of thinking (i used to use dominance theory) to help our clients and their dogs. If you would like to know more here are a couple of articles you may want to read.....

    Dominance and Your Dog | doglifetraining.com

    Dominance and The Wolf | doglifetraining.com

    If you need further proof, watch your own multi dog house household, not all resources are wanted by one dog. Dog A may be protective over his bed, but not care less about a ball. Dog B may love the ball but may not care much for his bed. So how can we treat only one dog as 'alpha' when the 'alpha' role changes? You can see how it could confuse many dogs and owners.

    Anyway, I just wanted to get you all thinking and open to some new research.

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Kurrajong / Hawkesbury
    Posts
    189

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    Hey thanks for your post DLT, the TOT was written by me in 1992, so it would be fair to say that if I was writing it today, I might change some of the terms.

    If you stop looking for things you disagree with though, it is a great program that many thousands of people have used and still use today, it works great on any dog and the dogs love the program, it also gets people training their dog every day.

    It is those things that count to me, not the wording.
    Steve Courtney, K9 Pro - The K9 Professionals

    www.k9pro.com.au

    Official Forum Trainer and Behaviourist

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    melbourne australia
    Posts
    3,082

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    Bumped again to state, my dog took 2 goes to get TOT.
    It works
    It works fast
    Its effects appear permanently ingrained in my dog. 18 months of reinforcement later, and when im concerned that he might want to get nosy with someone, or a dog i dont know, that "yes" command has him holding eye contact with me, alert, waiting for the release signal. This way, he no longer can see the distraction.
    Its simple and effective and a self rewarding prophecy built in. The most effective training method ive read and used to date!

  10. #40
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Gold Coast, Queensland
    Posts
    100

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    Quote Originally Posted by doglifetraining View Post
    This post was very interesting and great for helping people with some 'life skills' with their dogs. And I love that you are advocating the use of a gentle method. However, isnt it time to move on from the dominance theory of dog training? It arose out of research done in the 1920's and on unrelated captive wolves (no hunting, no stimulation and no genetic interest- of course there is going to be tension). It has since been proven that the 'alpha' wolves are actually the breeding pair, similar to a mother and father of a human family. They are dominant but only because they are mum and dad and the rules of the family are much more flexible that previously thought.

    It has also been proven that dogs (not wolves, and after all thats the animal we live with) do not live in packs, they come together to mate and sometimes to hang out. They dont raise their young together in family structures, nor do they hunt- dogs are mainly scavengers, you can see this in many third world countries (and even in our own dogs).

    So why do we keep advocating such roles as 'alpha'? Maybe it's easy to blame many problems on dominance- jumping, humping, snatching food. When instead it could be- excitement, displacement behaviour, and hunger.

    I may have opened a can of worms by posting this but I think, as professionals, it is our job to be well informed of current research and change our way of thinking (i used to use dominance theory) to help our clients and their dogs. If you would like to know more here are a couple of articles you may want to read.....

    Dominance and Your Dog | doglifetraining.com

    Dominance and The Wolf | doglifetraining.com

    If you need further proof, watch your own multi dog house household, not all resources are wanted by one dog. Dog A may be protective over his bed, but not care less about a ball. Dog B may love the ball but may not care much for his bed. So how can we treat only one dog as 'alpha' when the 'alpha' role changes? You can see how it could confuse many dogs and owners.

    Anyway, I just wanted to get you all thinking and open to some new research.


    The more understanding humans have of their dogs the more enjoyable life becomes for both. Really love what has been written (Dominance and Your Dog, posted on February 2, 2011 by katarina). Very interesting particularly the longitudinal study, by Semyonova (2003). The validity is unquestionable due to the instumentation being 24/7 and conduct of the research across a long space of time. Speaks for itself, from my perspective. More can be addressed with the dominance model in contrast, however the proverbial can of worms will no doubt be opened.

    If your dog has their paw resting on you they are displaying dominant behaviour- don’t let this happen- an example of dominance theory. My dogs exhibit this behaviour and I do not interpret that assumption as having any relativity. During times of distress, my dogs have exhibited this behaviour and as it is not without other body language signals such as the eye contact at the time, I think it is fair to state that my dogs are actually empathising with me as we are in a relationship underpinned by trust and respect.

    Dogs have been providing healing for many years and remedial/therapeutic dogs are exposed to as many real life key elements of our and other animals emotions/body language during their training. Feelings aside, the articles presented in doglifetraining.com are interesting, refreshing and well akin to a deeper understanding of dog behaviour.

    The real contention seems to develop when one is challenged with accepting that for years, dominance training seems to be about power and control relationships of man over dog. Then again power and control issues dominate a great proportion of literature across the board, including organisational heirachies right down to big man/ little man complexities.
    Ho'neene'šeohtseva'e

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