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Thread: Alternative to Prong Collar

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by k9force View Post
    S: I guess he is trained, trained to know how to behave when the collar is off and on lol. This is a common occurrence known as being collar smart.
    Exactly.

    Technically they haven't trained to a level in which the dog habitually walks on a loose leash, but many dont care...
    I agree.
    Respect and you shall be respected. Animal is always right.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    Fedra

    MR "makes" a horse run in circles - but it does have a choice. And the method he uses is a longish stick (maybe 2m) with a plastic bag on the end of it. He waves it behind the horse and the horse moves forward. Because it's a horse and it sees MR as predator - initially.

    I've never seen MR use any physical pressure or whip a horse or cause it any pain.

    It runs until it decides it's had enough and uses - I guess but I don't know - the horse equivalent of "calming signals" it indicate that it's willing to listen, at which point MR backs off the bag "pressure" and allows the horse to come into the centre of the run or paddock - and time after time, the horse approaches from behind and puts its chin on MR's shoulder. MR places his body in such away as it is not perceived as a threat by the horse (eg obliquely or side on instead of square forward facing the horse) to encourage the horse to feel confident enough to approach.

    All "psychological" methods including classical or operant conditioning of all forms can be used for good for for ill.

    The Stanford Prison Experiment: A Simulation Study of the Psychology of Imprisonment

    The same methods work just as well on humans as animals unfortunately.
    So I am going completely off dog topic

    All the "natural horsemen, Including Alex Nevzorov use the mare Stallion system to get the responses they want from the horses, Not the use of the predator. They try not to be the Predator and the Stallion is the "bite" and the mare is there to "follow". So you push as the Stallion and get them to follow the mare "you" in a more submissive form. Round pen work does this, but you can do the same in a 10 acre paddock, it is how the herd works. We have caught many horses in very large pastures by using that system, it takes time, but will happen. In Horse psychology training you do not use the predator, unless you have an aggressive horse that is a in attack mode. Then you turn into the Predator and look straight at the horse and chase him with all your energy. Horses nowadays are worked with position relative to their body/driveline on the ground, that is why round pens make it so easy
    One thing I am very comfortable with is how we treat our horses. we have spent a lot of money to study horses, including studying wild herds for weeks on end in the NT. we train our horse Naturally, which is some Monty Roberts, some Parelli, some Ray Hunt, Tom and Bill Dorrance and we have been to Europe to work with Alex and to the USA to some of the others and when they came over here. A lot of these people have been together and even worked together at events. There is also another trainer, who is amazing, but who's name escapes me (getting Old).
    Our horses are barefoot......Ridden mostly bare-back and can be ridden bridle less on just a string around there neck (except for one of our rescues, Doc). Our horses choose to be with us and if we are outside they come and see us. Horses also like people given a chance and i know they enjoy going out on a ride and especially chasing a cow. We can work cattle on ours with out directing them. It is just like a good BC, we are just along for the ride.
    But I also think that horses are often the worst treated domestic animal except for the dog.......
    Anyway, just my point of view
    Pets are forever

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by newfsie View Post
    So I am going completely off dog topic

    All the "natural horsemen, Including Alex Nevzorov use the mare Stallion system to get the responses they want from the horses,
    Nevzorov doesn't. He just lets the horse be as long as it takes and builds his trust slowly, not caring whether it's going to take a day, a week, a month or even a year. The horse approaches and does things when he's ready and when he wants. There is no pushing whatsoever in his method of work. Of course, many people accept this very hard because of the lack of - you've guessed it - patience. Nevzorov Haute Ecole has little or nothing to do with Natural horsemanship.

    Here's exact explanation:
    Nevzorov Haute Ecole

    I can understand if someone has a horse living in a natural environment and occasionally rides (bitless, barefoot, no saddle), but I loathe horse sports and using horses to earn money (renting them out). I've been there, done that and no thanks, never again. Yuk.

    Enjoy. Your horses certainly won't.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0a-aV...eature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Uwqy...eature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zhljc...eature=related
    Last edited by Fedra; 02-08-2011 at 12:22 AM.
    Respect and you shall be respected. Animal is always right.

  4. #44
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    Well I have to fully agree there, We also hate any of that...still we have been to him and watched him at work and if you watch him compared to Tom and Bill Dorrance there are similarities. I think when people say Natural, they always think Pat Parelli. I will always thank him, because he started us on a path that led us to where we are now, Without him initially we might still be very normal. We were with Pat in 1989- 1995 and then left and went a different path. Bill an tom are quite different and do drive a lot of people nuts.
    Our own horses live a very free life, n a herd and a open barn for inclement weather.
    But I am not here to argue this, because We spend our lives trying to make things better for horses in the general world by educating. at least part of the way. Our own horses have all been with us forever from the day we got them. they never move on, because we cannot trust anyone enough to treat them like we do. They are not disposable like most horses are. We do ride, but not for money or sport and the horse does come first. you only have to meet our Doc, to know what happens to a horse where winning is the most important. It has taken us five years, for him to trust us and now put his head willingly in our arms. To us it is about and for the horse.
    But we are still involved with the very normal people to try and make them "see" a better way, very frustrating sometimes
    Pets are forever

  5. #45

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    i have been reading the animal welfare act and its laws rules etc.
    I still cant seem to find where it says prong collars are illegal.Could someone please point me in the appropriate direction?
    Not parts where it says not to use cruelty but somewhere it says about prong collars?

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedra View Post
    Nevzorov doesn't. He just lets the horse be as long as it takes and builds his trust slowly, not caring whether it's going to take a day, a week, a month or even a year. The horse approaches and does things when he's ready and when he wants. There is no pushing whatsoever in his method of work. Of course, many people accept this very hard because of the lack of - you've guessed it - patience. Nevzorov Haute Ecole has little or nothing to do with Natural horsemanship.

    Here's exact explanation:
    Nevzorov Haute Ecole

    I can understand if someone has a horse living in a natural environment and occasionally rides (bitless, barefoot, no saddle), but I loathe horse sports and using horses to earn money (renting them out). I've been there, done that and no thanks, never again. Yuk.

    Enjoy. Your horses certainly won't.

    YouTube - The effects of the bit part 1

    YouTube - rollkur explained

    YouTube - The Damage Inside: Rollkur, Hyperflexion, LDR & Behind the Vertical


    Sorry to take this off topic for a second but wow Fedra!
    So you are saying you are totally against absolutely ALL horse sports? Dressage,Hacking,Reining etc.....
    GageDesign Pet Photography
    Site still in construction so will post link when it's finished.

  7. #47

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    I cannot even comment on that second video.Too much to condradict. So many wrong things blamed wrongly on Rollcur.

    The thing is,the bit is only as good/gentle/effective as the hands that are holding the reins.
    When I instructed my students began in a straight bar pelham . When they no longer needed their hands for balance amongst other things we progressed to a thick mullen mouthed snaffle.

    The videos you have placed here have only shown the extremes and riders with severely bad hands. A lovely ,light set of hands is a complete pleasure to watch and causes no harm to the horses structure .
    GageDesign Pet Photography
    Site still in construction so will post link when it's finished.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChoppaChop View Post
    So you are saying you are totally against absolutely ALL horse sports? Dressage,Hacking,Reining etc.....
    Absolutely. Reining is something I find especially gross. Very damaging and unnatural for a horse. Not to mention rodeos. Competitions and sports are something that humans invented in order to fulfill their egos, I guess. And that's fine as long as their bodies are involved and no animal is forced into it for the sake of winning. Animals would never even think of competing in nature in such manner, they would compete for food, for a mate, for space etc. That has nothing to do with sport however

    As for the videos - extremes or not bit causes pain and one time or another it will happen that someone will pull it. And it hurts. Rollkur is very unnatural for a horse. Horse never does it unless it's forced into it. I've never seen a free horse in a rollkur on its own.

    Anyway, if yu think it's not damaging and if you think it's OK - that's your opinion, and that's fine. I don't. As I said, I've been into horse sports (show jumping) for quite a long time and no matter how "gentle" someone's hands are bit is still very uncomfortable for a horse to have it in its mouth.

    Enjoy some more:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/nevzorov...44/D9jY_dNU_Cc
    Last edited by Fedra; 02-11-2011 at 05:55 PM.
    Respect and you shall be respected. Animal is always right.

  9. #49

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    Hi everyone!
    I am a new member of the board. I saw this topic I have many things and people have to learn. I think people can share documents related to this subject.
    Sincerely!
    John

  10. #50
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    Is it just me or is everyone else reading this and saying 'huh?' to themselves?
    A pessimist sees the glass as half empty;
    An optimist sees the glass as half full;
    A realist just finishes the damn thing and refills it.

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