Page 4 of 7 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 67

Thread: Alternative to Prong Collar

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    planet Earth
    Posts
    568

    Default

    I like Stormy May's approach too.
    Respect and you shall be respected. Animal is always right.

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Adelaide
    Posts
    39

    Default

    While Cesar and Monty are different I appreciate how they both take psychological approaches to working with animals. They both make huge efforts to understand pack/herd behavior and use this to produce the intended outcome in the way that is most natural for the animal. While clicker training might work, you don't see a pack of wolves communicating with each other using clickers. I feel that the more we can imitate pack/herd behavior, the happier our animals will be.

    Some people are critical of Ceasar for dominance theories and perceive some of his methods as harsh. I remember the very first dog obedience class I went to decades ago with my first pup, the trainer wanted to hit my pup with a jump stick across the ribs for jumping up on me. I've heard of other trainers kneeing dogs in the chest hard to get them to stop jumping. Those two methods seem overly cruel and unnecessary. Whereas a mommy dog or wolf would growl, nip, or possibly pin the pup down to reprimand unwanted behaviors. A wolf pack or dog pack will naturally establish a hierarchy, it needs to do so to function. I don't see anything wrong with establishing a hierarchy in a household with animals, as it will actually help the animal. Imagine an insecure dog who feels the responsibility of being the pack leader because the humans haven't stepped up, I would truly feel sorry for that dog.

    As for Monty Roberts, he is one of the best horsemen I've ever had the pleasure of working with. I can't believe anyone would say anything bad about him. I have been riding my entire life, competed in equestrian sports in college, and trained under coaches and riders from both the U.S. and German Olympic equestrian teams. Monty is exceptionally patient, gentle, and understanding. Obviously a horse that's intended for riding needs to accept a rider, I have never seen a kinder and gentler method for getting a horse to accept a rider than the one Monty uses. I've seen him calm and trailer nervous horses (which prevents injury to both the horse and people). I've seen him do things that are just amazing, and with no stress on the horses at all. He really communicates in a way that they understand. If you're the type of person who thinks that horses should simply be pets and not ridden, then of course you would have an issue with Monty, but otherwise I really don't understand the mixed emotions expressed here.

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Adelaide
    Posts
    39

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    Glitter009 - any chance you've got the "pop pop pop" going for the martingale? Also the noise the chain makes as the tension is applied is a warning for the dog, so it can anticipate and prevent the "pop".
    .
    No idea what the "pop pop pop" is. I don't hear the martingale when we're walking, and when corrections are necessary I make one and Abby responds. I'm just finding that I have to make more with the martingale than with the prong collar.

    Your walking method (or rather not walking when a dog pulls) sounds like a good idea. I'll start incorporating that as well.

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Adelaide
    Posts
    39

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fedra View Post
    Leadership is about trust and respect; it's not about overpowering or dominating an animal physically. It's about letting them be what they are and do things that they naturally need/want to do, but shaping the context in which they do things.
    That's EXACTLY what Monty does.

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    planet Earth
    Posts
    568

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Glitter009 View Post
    While Cesar and Monty are different I appreciate how they both take psychological approaches to working with animals.
    I won't speak of MR because i don't follow horse world these days as much. But I can speak of CM. And this is dog forum anyway... His "psychological approach" is according to many professional behaviourists very wrong. Or very black and white.

    They both make huge efforts to understand pack/herd behavior and use this to produce the intended outcome in the way that is most natural for the animal.
    The way dogs function is nothing like CM describes it. Dogs aren't wolf, and CM is self proclaimed behaviourist. His theories have been debunked many many times, again, by professionals in that field.

    While clicker training might work, you don't see a pack of wolves communicating with each other using clickers.
    Clicker is just a tool, nothing more and nothing less. The way animals including us, people learn is by principle of classical (in nature) and operant conditioning. It's a fact, and clicker is just a marker, a reinforcer of desired behaviour. You can use words instead of clicker, it doesn't matter, what matter is learning theory combined with nature of particular animal.

    I feel that the more we can imitate pack/herd behavior, the happier our animals will be.
    Unfortunately, we can't do it. We are not animals, or dogs in this case, and there's no way we can imitate "the pack". In order to communicate, dogs (and animals) use body language, smell etc... which we humans can't copy no matter how we try. We can't wag a tail because we don't have one. We can't use the look and body postures dogs use to communicate with one another. We don't smell like dogs, don't move like dogs, don't vocalise like dogs. So forget about trying because you or anyone else simply can't do that. What we can do is teach dogs how to behave in "human world", and we can do it without harsh methods, without prong or choke collars, without pinning to the ground or shaking.

    A wolf pack or dog pack will naturally establish a hierarchy, it needs to do so to function. I don't see anything wrong with establishing a hierarchy in a household with animals, as it will actually help the animal.
    Yes, but do you have to use force in order to do that? I don't think so. And CM often, too often does exactly that.

    As for Monty Roberts, he is one of the best horsemen I've ever had the pleasure of working with. I can't believe anyone would say anything bad about him.
    No one did. I just said there are better ones and I stated who they are in my opinion.

    Obviously a horse that's intended for riding needs to accept a rider, I have never seen a kinder and gentler method for getting a horse to accept a rider than the one Monty uses.
    OK. I don't believe horses are there to be ridden, have a bit in their mouth and shoed. It's just for our pleasure, not theirs. I've quit riding after I've done some research on horse anatomy and damages that riding, bits and shoes do to horses. So, no, thanks, I love them way too much to inflict that upon them. No horse wants to compete, we humans do, and when they show "disobedience" and won't comply they get hurt - I've seen it too often and was advised to do so, and did it myself because I was a kid who didn't know better.

    If you're the type of person who thinks that horses should simply be pets and not ridden, then of course you would have an issue with Monty,
    Yup, that's exactly why.
    Last edited by Fedra; 02-07-2011 at 10:39 AM.
    Respect and you shall be respected. Animal is always right.

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    planet Earth
    Posts
    568

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Glitter009 View Post
    That's EXACTLY what Monty does.
    No, it's not. You can't dominate and force an animal to do something and say it's about respect. It's about getting what he wants - by MAKING a horse do something he's not willing to do.
    Respect and you shall be respected. Animal is always right.

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Kurrajong / Hawkesbury
    Posts
    189

    Default

    Glitter Today we got a phone call from the club saying that prong collars are illegal under an animal cruelty act here in South Australia.
    S: I would like to see a copy of that act as I haven't come across it and haven't found any documentation of the prong being illegal in SA.

    Fedra: Anyway, a dog that needs to wear prong collar o choke chain all the time in order to be obedient is not a well trained dog. I'd say - it's not trained at all. It does what it's asked because it avoids unpleasant and aversive feeling. When you take off "the instruments" of course it won't listen.
    S: I guess he is trained, trained to know how to behave when the collar is off and on lol. This is a common occurrence known as being collar smart.

    Many people never successfully train their dog to walk on a loose leash, some use harnesses, some halters and some prongs, if they dont put in the training with either tool, you will simply get management (if your lucky).

    I would also like to add that management is all many people want or need, if the original problem was being dragged down the street, if that no longer happens then I guess the problem is solved.

    Technically they haven't trained to a level in which the dog habitually walks on a loose leash, but many dont care...
    Steve Courtney, K9 Pro - The K9 Professionals

    www.k9pro.com.au

    Official Forum Trainer and Behaviourist

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    118

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by k9force View Post
    S: I would like to see a copy of that act as I haven't come across it and haven't found any documentation of the prong being illegal in SA.
    There's actually nothing mentioned about prong collars at all in the Animal Welfare Act. Unless they also have another name, it doesn't appear that anything similar is even mentioned, apart from collars which impart an electric shock. Which is not similar, but.. you know, shows that if it were illegal, prong collars would be mentioned in this legislation.

    For reference - http://www.legislation.sa.gov.au/lz/...985.106.un.pdf

  9. #39

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Glitter009 View Post
    While Cesar and Monty are different I appreciate how they both take psychological approaches to working with animals. They both make huge efforts to understand pack/herd behavior and use this to produce the intended outcome in the way that is most natural for the animal. While clicker training might work, you don't see a pack of wolves communicating with each other using clickers. I feel that the more we can imitate pack/herd behavior, the happier our animals will be.
    I totaly agree that taking a more a primal type role with any animals can be far more productive than negitive reinforcment type training but I feel very few people actully knows how to do this in pratice & unless done correctly can cause more harm than good like alot of training really. I think poeple who are commited to taking this approch must first learn how different their pet breed dog is too a wolve in genetics & behavours. Of course there are simalarities but really our dogs have been domesticated for so many generations now very very few have any true wild wolve behavours. Just to start with a wolf ony comes into heat once a year & will even miss the yearly heat if conditions are really bad for keeping a litter feed. No dog is so intune with their body as to be able to stop their body clock due to conditions & this is only 1 example I have many many more.
    Some people are critical of Ceasar for dominance theories and perceive some of his methods as harsh. I remember the very first dog obedience class I went to decades ago with my first pup, the trainer wanted to hit my pup with a jump stick across the ribs for jumping up on me. I've heard of other trainers kneeing dogs in the chest hard to get them to stop jumping. Those two methods seem overly cruel and unnecessary. Whereas a mommy dog or wolf would growl, nip, or possibly pin the pup down to reprimand unwanted behaviors. A wolf pack or dog pack will naturally establish a hierarchy, it needs to do so to function. I don't see anything wrong with establishing a hierarchy in a household with animals, as it will actually help the animal. Imagine an insecure dog who feels the responsibility of being the pack leader because the humans haven't stepped up, I would truly feel sorry for that dog.

    I totally agree that you must be the top dog but I think this position must be gained through trust & leadership more than domanaince. Dogs do naturally develope a hierarchy but it is NO where near as simple as some are alpha & some are omegas & the rest middle of the road pack members. I have spent alot of hours just learning how packs work both in a more pet type situation & in a guardian situation where the dogs really where quite wild in many ways & both worked very differently to the other. As the pet pack wanted to please people & the guardians wanted to keep their territories free of non pack members & fight over who got the best position for watching over the farm & really did not care to interact with people at all other than as a food source. Yet some guardians pups are more pet like & I think if not taken out of the guardian pack would become a target. Different pack members can take different positions within the pack depending on several things like the situation at the time, an unwell alpha dog & just generally on the mood of the day.

    As for Monty Roberts, he is one of the best horsemen I've ever had the pleasure of working with. I can't believe anyone would say anything bad about him. I have been riding my entire life, competed in equestrian sports in college, and trained under coaches and riders from both the U.S. and German Olympic equestrian teams. Monty is exceptionally patient, gentle, and understanding. Obviously a horse that's intended for riding needs to accept a rider, I have never seen a kinder and gentler method for getting a horse to accept a rider than the one Monty uses. I've seen him calm and trailer nervous horses (which prevents injury to both the horse and people). I've seen him do things that are just amazing, and with no stress on the horses at all. He really communicates in a way that they understand. If you're the type of person who thinks that horses should simply be pets and not ridden, then of course you would have an issue with Monty, but otherwise I really don't understand the mixed emotions expressed here.
    I did not say anthing bad about him just that his methods are not as good as some others thats all. I too have alot of exsperaince but am not going to put it all down but just say I have been about when it comes to horse on all sides of the fence concerning breeding, training, resale & competing & that I have had intense amount of time under international trainers. Yes he's kind in the way he goes about his method no doubt about that. I am all for not just horses working but my dogs also so that is not my problem at all. How many people go away from 1 of his clinics & can actully replecate what they learnt there at home with the same success? I think there is just a little more to having horse compition ready than following most of natural horsemanship methods. I like to take a bit from here & a bit from there & think when people get to set in 1 form of training they are only limiting themselves & their horse/dog. I can get a seemingly mad horse become calm & follow me around a yard too but I also like to know I can manage that same horse in an open paddock whilst riding him & I find some of Monty Roberts methods a little lacking in theses types of areas. But he is no dummy & a worthwhile clinic to attend just don't exsept it to fixs everything. I think my main problem is how many messed up horses that are coming through that are messed up by poeple chasing them around a yard witha big stick & no real understanding of how the horse preseives them. Just like Ceaser it's not their training methods I have a problem with but more the idots who but it into practice all wrong,
    I like Ceaser mainly but do understand some peoples problems with his meathods & think it is not a good method for inexsperainced dog owners & dose not suit all dogs much like MR I guess.
    Dogs make everyday life enjoyable...........

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Adelaide
    Posts
    12,581

    Default

    Fedra

    MR "makes" a horse run in circles - but it does have a choice. And the method he uses is a longish stick (maybe 2m) with a plastic bag on the end of it. He waves it behind the horse and the horse moves forward. Because it's a horse and it sees MR as predator - initially.

    I've never seen MR use any physical pressure or whip a horse or cause it any pain.

    It runs until it decides it's had enough and uses - I guess but I don't know - the horse equivalent of "calming signals" it indicate that it's willing to listen, at which point MR backs off the bag "pressure" and allows the horse to come into the centre of the run or paddock - and time after time, the horse approaches from behind and puts its chin on MR's shoulder. MR places his body in such away as it is not perceived as a threat by the horse (eg obliquely or side on instead of square forward facing the horse) to encourage the horse to feel confident enough to approach.

    All "psychological" methods including classical or operant conditioning of all forms can be used for good for for ill.

    The Stanford Prison Experiment: A Simulation Study of the Psychology of Imprisonment

    The same methods work just as well on humans as animals unfortunately.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •