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Thread: Alternative to Prong Collar

  1. #21

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    I don't believe there is an "Animal Cruelty Act" in South Australia.

    The "Animal Welfare Act" does not have any specific clauses regarding prong collars.


    If you'd like an alternative, for the most similar sensation, I would suggest an all-metal martingale collar.
    http://www.petsprovidore.com.au/imag...martingale.jpg

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glitter009 View Post
    Tonight I took Abby out on a walk with her new martingale collar. She's nowhere near as responsive as with the prong collar,
    Of course she's not, because she got used to prong. Rather than correcting unwanted behavior try reinforcing desired.

    Maybe reading this would help: On punishment

    Bob Baliey

    Although it talks about clicker, the principles are the same.

    Anyway, a dog that needs to wear prong collar o choke chain all the time in order to be obedient is not a well trained dog. I'd say - it's not trained at all. It does what it's asked because it avoids unpleasant and aversive feeling. When you take off "the instruments" of course it won't listen. And why should he?
    Respect and you shall be respected. Animal is always right.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leema View Post
    I don't believe there is an "Animal Cruelty Act" in South Australia.

    The "Animal Welfare Act" does not have any specific clauses regarding prong collars.


    If you'd like an alternative, for the most similar sensation, I would suggest an all-metal martingale collar.
    http://www.petsprovidore.com.au/imag...martingale.jpg
    Thanks Leema. It seems that the law is open to interpretation and while it may not in fact be illegal to use a prong collar here, I certainly don't want to tempt fate. Since I can't use a prong collar at the obedience club it makes sense for me to not use it at home either (I'm certainly not opposed to them and have used prong collars for years, but I don't see much sense in using two different types of collars for training).

    Interestingly, the martingale collar made me feel much worse about giving corrections when the prong collar never bothered me even once. Abby required more frequent and more forceful corrections with the martingale collar. Plus, the corrections really seemed to scare her. With the prong collar I had the double D rings locked so it never cinched around her neck and just applied light pressure. She seems to tolerate the pressure better than the cinching and the noise.

    Like I said though, we won't be continuing with the prong collar due to wishy washy laws and the rules of our dog club. I'm simply posting our experience in case anyone else winds up in the same boat or is considering switching.
    Last edited by Glitter009; 02-05-2011 at 08:38 PM.

  4. #24
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    @Fedra: Personally, I believe that a balance of positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement should be used to produce the best results. I also find many of Cesar Millan's methods in-line with my own way of thinking. While I have never worked with Cesar personally, I have worked with Monty Roberts "the horse whisperer" and it was an amazing experience.

    Here's an interesting article that is posted on Cesar's website: Creating a Subconscious Mess? | www.cesarsway.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glitter009 View Post
    @Fedra: Personally, I believe that a balance of positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement should be used to produce the best results.
    Me too. And so does Bob Bailey, however very sparingly and not all the time. If you read the interview and his article you could see on how many animals and different species he actually proved his theories throughout his life. And he is quite old now.

    I also find many of Cesar Millan's methods in-line with my own way of thinking.
    Fair enough, personally I dislike his methods and false "dominance theories", although I do think some of the things he says are true, but those things say people that truly are educated behavior experts, so he's not saying anything new.

    While I have never worked with Cesar personally, I have worked with Monty Roberts "the horse whisperer" and it was an amazing experience.
    M.R. is C.M. of horse world

    Anyway, if you believe that animal has to submit to you in order to have a quality relationship than CM and MR are people you should listen. I don't believe this is necessary, so I don't follow their advices/theories/methods as I believe there are different ways for achieving quality relationship and obedient dog, horse or whatever animal and have 3 beautiful well mannered obedient dogs.

    An animal is always right
    Last edited by Fedra; 02-05-2011 at 11:00 PM.
    Respect and you shall be respected. Animal is always right.

  6. #26
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    I like Monty Robert's methods a whole lot better than Cesar Milan's... I think it is a bit insulting to suggest that MR is like Cesar at all. And there is no way on earth MR could pin a horse by its head to the ground - just imagine. It's equally ridiculous in my opininon to do it to a dog. There is no argument when working with horses about who is stronger. You force them to do anything at your personal peril.

    I agree with Susan Garrett (and some Autism specialists) - punishment can have unexpected fall out, so using it is risky.

    Glitter009 - any chance you've got the "pop pop pop" going for the martingale? Also the noise the chain makes as the tension is applied is a warning for the dog, so it can anticipate and prevent the "pop".

    However, I work with a flat collar or front attach harness, and if dog is pulling, I stop going, and call her back to me and praise her for being where I want her to be, and repeat until she gets it - that we're not going until she's being gentle on her self and my arm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    I like Monty Robert's methods a whole lot better than Cesar Milan's...
    Not much really. You can't pin a horse the way you can pin a dog for obvious reasons, but you can still use other meanings of force to make an animal comply. And MR does it. He is also big on "dominance" theory BS and he uses it in order to establish leadership. In horse world Alexander Nevzorov (and others who treat horses the way he does) is the only person I would really care to listen.

    Leadership is about trust and respect; it's not about overpowering or dominating an animal physically. It's about letting them be what they are and do things that they naturally need/want to do, but shaping the context in which they do things.
    Respect and you shall be respected. Animal is always right.

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    MR makes a horse run in a circle until it tells him it's ready to listen.

    How is that anything like "dominating" or "overpowering"

    Have you actually seen MR work, Fedra? The whole point of his training method is to get away from the old style that involved tying the horse up with ropes on every bit of it and throwing it on the ground until it was "broken", or strapping a bloke on top and letting it run until it was exhausted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    MR makes a horse run in a circle until it tells him it's ready to listen.

    How is that anything like "dominating" or "overpowering"
    He MAKES him until it tells him? Horses don't talk, so I guess until horse gives up and has no other option

    Yeah, I've seen some videos of his work and although much better than traditional everyday horsework I still find it ehh
    Respect and you shall be respected. Animal is always right.

  10. #30

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    Monty Roberts is OK but I do know of better natural horsemen.
    Horse whispering is a very misused term really & it has lead to a heap of young fellas putting out videos & doing clinics which is all very well but I have to say I know come across a lot of horses that have never been out of an arena.
    Monty Roberts is better than alot them though.
    Dogs make everyday life enjoyable...........

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