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Thread: Cesar Vs. Victoria.

  1. #71

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    I am talking for myself only...........
    And I agree it's not something you should need to use in your average training situtation.
    I have stated many times it isn't a method that is useful often but I have found it useful in more than 1 rehab case.
    I find having such a level headed strong pack this sort of action is done much better by 1 of them & the dog usally learn more from it.
    But I have had 1 dog in particular that just had no respect for humans(great pack manners though) had been allowed to rule his household with fear for years & thought he'd carry it on with us.
    I was doing some clicker training with him & he keeped trying to bite my hand with the clicker & the next time he jumped at me I got him whilst off balance & just pushed his shoulder & was there over him as he came down & rolled him before he had a chanse to even think about how to react. Thats all I had to do & keep my self in a very sure & assertive body posture(without threat though) & he looked away himself & I released him. I did not plan to do it it just came to me in the time but it was very affective.
    It in no way cured him but it got us on a different footing & he started to want to please me in just the slightest way but it was a start. He has some huge issues though & I think no one had every bothered to even question his right to being the boss of the house.
    You know it is really not a method that you can always use & when misused is useless & may even result in a fearful dog.
    For me it comes down to the individual dog, the cirricumstances that day & wether I see an opening that I could pull it off with the right timing without strengh or fear. Timing is huge as with any dog training method.

  2. #72
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    Crazydog

    That's why I'm saying - the submissive dog volunteers the roll based on doggy self preservation and peace keeping instincts, eg in a wild dog pack - they can't afford to be injured fighting among themselves so they have other ways of solving disputes.

    Eg I want what you have - other dog says - ok you can have it in a way that the first dog clearly understands. And it's fast.

    I think that's where human immitators of Cesar - misunderstand how it works. I just watched the two episodes on Iview - and they're SO OLD. I've seen them before - years and years ago. Sigh. But he doesn't alpha roll a dog once. He's got all the right ideas about how to deal with a naughty dog eg good timing - rewarding good behaviour and discouraging or distracting a dog from bad behaviour. It's so easy to see where the owners are going wrong. They essentially reward bad behaviour so it escalates.

    A lot of his reasons "why a dog thinks this way" - I think are deluded, just because you have a system that works, doesn't mean you understand why it works. Operant and classical conditioning work but it doesn't really have a lot to do who is pack leader or dominant and who is submissive.

  3. #73

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    Hyacith,
    Yes & this is the only way it works for the positive if it's fast & presice.
    I agree that other methods can work just as well on totaly different princables but I do think certain dogs do better with a different approach also. I try not to limit myself to 1 train of though on any training or behavour modifacation issues.
    I have my favourts but I try to come at every dog with a fresh unbiased mind on what directions we could take.
    I so agree that Creaser is more than an alpha roll & am glad others can see it too. By no way perfect but who is.

  4. #74
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    I too am wondering, like smeagle, how it is possible to roll an aggressive dog who is in a "state" without using any actual physical force. Telekinesis seems the only answer to me and we all know that's rubbish.

    I am also wondering how you managed to roll a dog CD, just because he jumped with a gentle shove. My dog has amazing balance, I could shove him in mid leap with all my might and he'd still land on his feet, and if I saved the push for as he landed I wouldnt get anywhere at all, soon as any of his eet are on the ground hes stable as a rock.

    Unless of course I want him to roll over for hatever reason obviously

  5. #75
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    I was doing some clicker training with him & he keeped trying to bite my hand with the clicker
    See, I wouldn't use an alpha roll to sort that. I'd either end the game and the dog would go back in the crate - and for a new dog as you describe - I'd follow Susan Garrett's Ruff Love pretty closely ie the dog would always be crated for the first month unless I was available to supervise it for training, walks etc.

    Or I'd gently shove my hand that was in the dog's mouth - a little bit further in, and I'd hold that for a second past his comfort level eg for a second after he starts trying to spit me out. This technique I do not recommend for a dog that is mad at you but even one that is trying to kill you - if it's already got hold of you and you push - it's going to try to spit you out. It's when you try to pull away that you get ripped up.

    I can get Frosty to roll over just by raising a fist at her. I tried holding her down by force a couple of times when she was a puppy and misbehaving but I found the fall out was worse than what I was trying to achieve - ie sticking her in a crate for a bit of time alone - was more effective. She completely freaked out when I tried pinning her. It was ugly and not what I was looking for.

    I find that depriving a dog of attention, or ending a game is a more effective way to get control back.

  6. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lala View Post
    I too am wondering, like smeagle, how it is possible to roll an aggressive dog who is in a "state" without using any actual physical force. Telekinesis seems the only answer to me and we all know that's rubbish.

    I am also wondering how you managed to roll a dog CD, just because he jumped with a gentle shove. My dog has amazing balance, I could shove him in mid leap with all my might and he'd still land on his feet, and if I saved the push for as he landed I wouldnt get anywhere at all, soon as any of his eet are on the ground hes stable as a rock.

    Unless of course I want him to roll over for hatever reason obviously
    Reread & I have answer this, it is all about persence, timing, the training leading up to it & having have knowledge of what dogs it's possible with & which it isn't. You also need to be able to read a dog before they even have a chanse to follow out what every negitive bahavour you know they where leading up too.
    When ever a dog dose something it is in reaction to some stimulation & you need to learn what stimulates what dog & learn how to read the tiniest little shift in focus or energies so you change stop the esculation. A dog reads your stuble body langue way better than your voice & if you use body langue enough & consistantly enough it takes very little to control or even just confuse them & no need for telepathic comunacation just a ver good understanding of each others mannerisms, moods & triggers.
    You have to have impecable timing & when they are just between being up & coming down if you push on the tip of the shoulder over they go(much like how 1 small man topples a huge beast by getting them offbalanced & following through quickly enough). But you have to be fast with the follow up too so you don't get in a push pull sitation getting them from their side to back.
    You know I have trained many dogs & used this method no more than 6 times so I am in NO way saying it fixs everthing or is suitable to use on all dogs just that it has worked when other method whern't. There are a few presure points that drop a dog with no pain also but I have never used it.
    There is some cases where I would try anything if I thought it even had the tinest chanse of working & you wins some & you lose some in those situations. I am proud of my win rate so I will continue to use whatever I deem nesecery in the individual dogs case.

  7. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    See, I wouldn't use an alpha roll to sort that. I'd either end the game and the dog would go back in the crate - and for a new dog as you describe - I'd follow Susan Garrett's Ruff Love pretty closely ie the dog would always be crated for the first month unless I was available to supervise it for training, walks etc.

    Or I'd gently shove my hand that was in the dog's mouth - a little bit further in, and I'd hold that for a second past his comfort level eg for a second after he starts trying to spit me out. This technique I do not recommend for a dog that is mad at you but even one that is trying to kill you - if it's already got hold of you and you push - it's going to try to spit you out. It's when you try to pull away that you get ripped up.

    I can get Frosty to roll over just by raising a fist at her. I tried holding her down by force a couple of times when she was a puppy and misbehaving but I found the fall out was worse than what I was trying to achieve - ie sticking her in a crate for a bit of time alone - was more effective. She completely freaked out when I tried pinning her. It was ugly and not what I was looking for.

    I find that depriving a dog of attention, or ending a game is a more effective way to get control back.
    It is in most cases put I was 6wks in & having no luck & it seemed for every step foward this dog was taking 2 backwards when any of my normal methods.
    I did it by instinct & I really did not have time to knoe how it would work just that he had left the door open for me to get him off balance.
    He was also esculating from mouthing to nipping to hanging on & shaking.
    He toke over a yr to fix with the help of a couple og great friends & trainers but i admitt there is no way any 1 of us could do it on our own.

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazydog View Post
    That is no where near what my dog dose as he never bears teeth & would only actully touch the dog if nessercy.
    Well, different dog - different situation - different reason. When my rottie just gives "the look" to any of those other dogs, things settle. She is "the big mumma" and has no need to use the force. I have many many times experienced her sorting out misbehaved pups/dogs and she never alpha-rolled any dog using force. She would bite their snouts (the bite is not damaging, it's a warning), she would impose herself and make herself bigger, she would push another dog with her chest or paw them (placing a paw on another dog's shoulders), she vould vocalise, but she would never, ever grab another dog by skin and put it or roll it on its back by force, another dog would do it by itself.
    She is very dominant dog, although towards me, very submissive. I don't like to use word submissive in terms of her telationship with me. I'l just say I have no problem with her. But with other dogs, she stands out taller, bolder, secure and very sure of herself. I found her on the street so her canine manners are fantastic. Dogs that usually tend to cause trouble with other dogs are either insecure or wannabies in search for recognition. Aggression has nothing or very little to do with dominance.
    Respect and you shall be respected. Animal is always right.

  9. #79
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    hi crazydog

    I have to admit that there is always a dog out there where you have to try something different. I just haven't met the one for which alpha roll forced on a dog by a human does any good. I still think it's because the dog has to volunteer it or it doesn't mean what it should to the dog. Eg if you force it, it's not the dog's choice and that dog may fear you, but still won't respect you or your boundaries.

    I also admit that the dog I have now is the hardest one to train that I've ever had. Even the Aussie Terror was easier and more biddable.

  10. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    hi crazydog

    I also admit that the dog I have now is the hardest one to train that I've ever had. Even the Aussie Terror was easier and more biddable.
    I'm going through something similar with the dog I have now too, he's a very fast learner but I have to get creative to keep his interest, but he's showing more signs of loyalty than any dog I've ever owned - go figure.

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