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Thread: Cesar Vs. Victoria.

  1. #61


    Yes I've seen dogs do it by both force & by just using their place in the pack to assert a alpha roll.
    I think wolves & domestic dogs are a little different so the wolve stuff is a little irrelevent to me.
    As for someone saying they are not into crulety & thats what a roll over is, wow..........
    I think you have to understand anything you do whilst a dog is in flight or fight responce isn't doing any good as dog has stopped learning so my biggest advice is to not put your dog into a situation that they could respond with that responce.
    If the alpha roll was cruel it would be pointless.
    I would not use it on just any dog either but their are some that it has made huge changes in.

  2. #62


    Last night on ABC Cesar (It's the first time I've seen the old episodes) had a dog with a hyperactive owner and the owners demeanour had rubbed off on the dog and made it over excitable and hyperactive.
    He did make it clear how a dog needs a calm rational leader.

    I have a child that instantly turns into an overexcited nut case whenever she gets close to the dog, so I have to try to train the child as well the dog.

    I purposely do some (every 4th or 5th training session) of my training sessions around the kids as I feel it will help with impulse control - for the dog and the kids. It's also a bit of a test for me to stay calm under stress (keeping 3 kids out of the dogs face is a challenge) It seems to be working for all of us.

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Dec 2010


    I never realised they had Dog Whisperer on ABC too. Not sure why the episodes are shortened to 25 minutes though (unless that's how long the earlier episodes were). Will have to record it as I haven't seen too many of the earlier episodes.

  4. #64


    Quote Originally Posted by ChoppaChop View Post
    The use of a role is to gain some semblence of not so much an uppper hand,but more of a getting the dog into a frame of mind where it as at least prepared to 'hear' you. Its not used for fear reasons.
    I'm not saying people always use with the intention of forcing the dog to submit out of fear but you can clearly see this is the case in some instances on Cesar's show.

    I don't think it scares every dog. I have no doubt that if you did it to a truly rank aggressive dog you would get your face bitten off. The problem with any confrontational method like the alpha roll is you need to guarantee you are bigger and stronger than the dog if the dog decides to take you up on that challenge. How many owners do you think can 110% guarantee they could keep their dog on the ground if it decided to challenge them or tried to get away? A dog so far gone that they can't "hear" you is going to be full of adrenaline, there is no point even attempting to teach them anything in that state.

  5. #65


    But thats what I'm saying Smeagle
    And I certainly dont believe anyone without the dog experience or some quick witted smartness about them ie good ole common sense should even consider using the role.

    Once the dog is beneath me and as hard as it is to believe they seldom struggle for long once they realise they are the under dog for a change , the brain switches from the fight/flight to ok what now . Thats the thoughts I need to get anywhere with a dog bad enough to warrant a role.

    I've used it twice.Once on a cross Bully,once on a Pure.The pure dogs problems actually stemmed from people to begin with so was quite easy to work with once I had made the brain switch. The cross on the other hand ( I wont go into breeds as dogs are dogs) was all his own doing.He was a legend in his own kennel,just ask him,he certainly would of told you .Again though,I needed that brain switch and I needed to get it somewhat badly.Yes I could of had my face ripped off but I didnt and dog is now happily entrenched within his new very dog experienced family.

    really need to add that a dog warranting a roll has NO flight in him,its all fight.
    Last edited by ChoppaChop; 01-13-2011 at 01:08 PM.
    GageDesign Pet Photography
    Site still in construction so will post link when it's finished.

  6. #66


    Quote Originally Posted by Fedra View Post
    It's actually a good movie. I'd love to read a book too.

    Why do you think a dog wouldn't hear you without rolling him/her over? I truly believe that alpha-roll is man made nonsense and it does nothing but forces a dog into learned helplessness state of mind. It is rather dangerous if you do this to an assertive, bold, strong minded dog. It may "work" sometimes and when it does I do not consider it as problem solved. It is problem solved for humans. A dog leans nothing from it but to fear you, to be confused. A message is far from clear.

    I don't believe this would help a dominant dog stop being dominant. Dominant dog is dominant and there is N O T H I N G in this world a human can do about it. It's like trying to change someone's personality which I find impossible in humans or dogs for that matter. The key is to work your way around it and to built trust and respect in your relationship with a dog, not through force, as truly dominant dog will simply not put up with that c*ap. It won't and it will definetely fight you back and possibly seriously injure you. Especially if it's some kind of large dog aware of its strength. Majority (if not all) of dogs shown in Cesar's shows are not dominant, they are misbehaving because owners have failed to teach them or have spoiled them to the point the dogs seem retarded and have forgotten to be dogs.
    The easiest thing one can do is call misbehaving dog dominant.

    Because a dog that is busy trying to have me for afternoon tea just because I had the nerve to tell it it to do something is certainly going to listen to little else. I have had used a muzzle in lesser extent dogs but the times I've resorted to the roll it wasn't an action I chose to use quickly.I progressed through until it was all or nothing.

    A dog that believes it is god ( for real) is going to listen to nothing else but a higher god.So I became a higher God.
    GageDesign Pet Photography
    Site still in construction so will post link when it's finished.

  7. #67


    Sorry Choppa, but I just can't believe that a dog that dominant would ever submit so easily to a person. Are we really supposed to believe that you had no trouble pinning a truly dominant aggressive bully and bully x to the ground with no injuries to yourself?

    I've separated my 30kg dog from another in a dog fight, the strength even he has when in that state is so powerful there is no way on earth I'd ever be strong enough to pin him to the ground when he had that much adrenaline pumping through his veins. And he's not a super dominant dog. I can't even imagine the strength it would take to pin down a dog bigger and more dominant than he is, and at the end of the day, I can't believe the risk of injury (or worse) would be worth it. Why would you even attempt to get a dog to listen to you when in that state, by then it is too late and it's not even worth attempting to teach them anything.

    If the dog was really trying to have you for afternoon tea pinning it to the ground just strikes me as one of the stupidest moves you could make - and if it really is THAT dominant, pinning it to the ground once is hardly going to change it. I know of cases where people have been put in hospital just for looking at a truly dominant dog the wrong way, there is no way on earth I'd be physically confronting one.
    Last edited by Bec; 01-13-2011 at 02:48 PM.

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Aug 2009


    So they've got Cesar on the ABC 2 (digital free to air in Oz) at 8pm on Wednesdays...

    ABC Television | The complete TV guide for ABC1, ABC2, ABC3, ABC News24 & ABC iView

    It just figures that co-incides with me being out walking my dog, and I don't have a recorder for digital tv yet.

    I guess that's what Iview is for.

    Anyway - crazydog - I'm still curious about how your big dog can force another dog into a submissive, throat exposed position. A human can do it but it requires quite a lot of dexterity and strength, being able to twist the dog upside down and hold it there.

    I've seen the occasional big dog swat a smaller one with its paw, but unless the smaller one rolls over of its own accord, it tends to be ears and back of the neck up and thoat on the ground. I've never seen a dog grab another by the back of the neck and successfully do anything but shake it up. The flick twist required to get the dog on its back and held there - I've never seen a dog be able to do. Well only if the other dog agrees or is too injured to disagree.

  9. #69


    The whole point of the Alpha role is to not have to use true strengh to get to the dog beleiving you are stronger than them. As soon as it comes down to true strengh against strengh your going to loose.
    It is more a mental exercise than a physical exercise when applied correctly. To be able to use an roll over that is of any use in the dogs learning there is alot that comes before it.
    I think I need to get some clips of what I am talking about to really get it across properly.

  10. #70


    I think we should be able to handle our dogs with ease, I have no problem putting my dogs on their sides and rolling them over if I want to, but it takes no force and is completely non-confrontational. They let me handle them like that because they are relaxed and calm and used to being handled.

    I fail to understand how you'd be using no physical force to alpha roll a dog in a situation like the one Choppa described with an apparently super dominant dog, who is running on adrenaline and is trying to "eat her for afternoon tea".

    I don't want to teach my dog that the alpha is the one who is biggest and strongest, respect can be taught in so many more ways. When I look at Cesar's definition of a submissive dog, I don't find it desirable at all. Think of the definition of a submissive dog, they have their head down, avert their gaze and won't make eye contact with you, will slink around with their tail down etc. I don't ever want to see that kind of body language in my dogs when they are interacting with me - yuck! I want my dogs to be excited to interact with me and excited and confident when obeying my commands, I want to see their heads up, tail up, eyes bright. Who wants to see submissive body language? No thanks!
    Last edited by Bec; 01-13-2011 at 03:03 PM.

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