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Thread: Cesar Vs. Victoria.

  1. #51

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    Yes. It is done in the wild or any pack for that matter. Just that usually you will experience a submissive dog that will usually do a roll of its own accord ie " better get down here before I'm told to" type thing.

    Smeagle I dont believe its the only way to handle an agro dog.As IO stated,I've only resorted to it twice and twice it worked for me and 'those' dogs.
    I will continue to do what works and if this is considered 'cruel' as you seem to think so be it. But if faced with these types of behavioual issues again I will again go through all I can before having to resort to the roll,but resort to it I will if needed.
    Last edited by ChoppaChop; 01-12-2011 at 10:28 PM.
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  2. #52

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    Lala there are dogs out there who will not submit to any dog or human come hell or high water . As I have previously stated,I do not immediately go for a roll,it will build to that.
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  3. #53

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    Oh and a dog that does it of its own accord is being a submissive animal anyways,sometimes a dog wont,for anyone.
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  4. #54
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    Crazydog and AussieMyf

    Have you actually seen the "dominant" dog actually force the submissive one into position or does the submissive one actually volunteer it. Like Fedra said, it happens very very quickly.

    I've read Farley Mowat's book "Never Cry Wolf" (never seen the movie and don't want to), and he went out and lived with the wolves, observed and wrote down what they did, and occasionally copied what they did (with extremely funny results).

    He said that any wolf in trouble could roll over and expose its own throat and wolf rules were such that the wolf on top was not allowed to kill the under wolf. But the under wolf had to volunteer it. If it chose to fight instead of rolling over, it could be killed.

    And this would be why dogs that won't start a fight but won't back down if the other dog starts it (gives them the look) - can get into so much trouble - especially if they are a SWF up against a much bigger dog.
    Last edited by Hyacinth; 01-12-2011 at 10:43 PM.

  5. #55

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    The use of a role is to gain some semblence of not so much an uppper hand,but more of a getting the dog into a frame of mind where it as at least prepared to 'hear' you. Its not used for fear reasons.
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  6. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChoppaChop View Post

    Smeagle I dont believe its the only way to handle an agro dog.As IO stated,I've only resorted to it twice and twice it worked for me and 'those' dogs.
    I will continue to do what works and if this is considered 'cruel' as you seem to think so be it. But if faced with these types of behavioual issues again I will again go through all I can before having to resort to the roll,but resort to it I will if needed.
    You asked me what else would you do like there's no other option. What kind of situations are you dealing with where the only option is to pin a dog to the ground?

    It's not just about being cruel - though if you feel it's appropriate to alpha roll a dog until it urinates all over itself in fear go ahead, I've see a dog do just that on CMs show - but alpha rolling one of those truly dominant dogs you are talking about is plain stupid. And if the dog is so truly dominant, just what will pinning it to the ground really achieve? Apart from you risking getting your face bitten off.

  7. #57

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    Smeagle read the post above your last one
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  8. #58
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    I have also read various wolf experts who say that Wolves dont alpha roll. The submissive dog rolls over on its own accord. If another wolf is challenging then there is a fight or show of strength and the weaker wolf submits or they can fight to the death.

    I have seen on occassion my dogs struggle for dominance and the dominant dog ending up standing over the loser, but it appeared to me that the weaker dog had ended the fight by submitting.

    A behaviourist told me that the way he deals with a "bossy" dog is to get it to submit on its side and for the human to gently just place a hand on the dog and talk to it in a friendly manner. This needs to be done several times a day.

    Never had a dog that tried to be dominant over me so wouldnt have a clue if it works!

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    I've read Farley Mowat's book "Never Cry Wolf" (never seen the movie and don't want to),
    It's actually a good movie. I'd love to read a book too.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChoppaChop View Post
    The use of a role is to gain some semblence of not so much an uppper hand,but more of a getting the dog into a frame of mind where it as at least prepared to 'hear' you. Its not used for fear reasons.
    Why do you think a dog wouldn't hear you without rolling him/her over? I truly believe that alpha-roll is man made nonsense and it does nothing but forces a dog into learned helplessness state of mind. It is rather dangerous if you do this to an assertive, bold, strong minded dog. It may "work" sometimes and when it does I do not consider it as problem solved. It is problem solved for humans. A dog leans nothing from it but to fear you, to be confused. A message is far from clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalacreek View Post
    A behaviourist told me that the way he deals with a "bossy" dog is to get it to submit on its side and for the human to gently just place a hand on the dog and talk to it in a friendly manner. This needs to be done several times a day.
    I don't believe this would help a dominant dog stop being dominant. Dominant dog is dominant and there is N O T H I N G in this world a human can do about it. It's like trying to change someone's personality which I find impossible in humans or dogs for that matter. The key is to work your way around it and to built trust and respect in your relationship with a dog, not through force, as truly dominant dog will simply not put up with that c*ap. It won't and it will definetely fight you back and possibly seriously injure you. Especially if it's some kind of large dog aware of its strength. Majority (if not all) of dogs shown in Cesar's shows are not dominant, they are misbehaving because owners have failed to teach them or have spoiled them to the point the dogs seem retarded and have forgotten to be dogs.
    The easiest thing one can do is call misbehaving dog dominant.
    Respect and you shall be respected. Animal is always right.

  10. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedra View Post
    Actually, dogs DO NOT use alpha roll, so humans can't go and shake their dogs or put them on their back in order to "reduce their rank". It is plain stupid.

    When dominant dog approaches, or charges or is annoyed with another, that other dog lies on its back on its own. It isn't forced into the position by more dominant dog. It is actually hard to notice because it happens in seconds, but it's true. Subordinate dog will lie on its back on it's own, not because another dog forces it on its back. It is survival mechanism that is imprinted.

    I have never EVER seen a dog forcing another onto the ground (I am not talking about full blown fights). Nor have I seen a bitch pressing her pups and forcing them onto their backs or shaking them the way humans do. Yes, she would snap at them, bite their snouts or paw them, but they roll over by themselves. I wish I had some slow motion videos to prove that.

    YouTube - Alpha Rolls in Wolves

    Check out how black dog lies down on its own (@ 0,24 sek)

    YouTube - Cooper pins Walker

    YouTube - dog fight.wmv

    And these are my own dogs:

    Bigger one (Flick) is sniffing somehing that has a value. He is a bit possessive. Small one comes and wants to check what's there. Bigger one gives him a warning look, but little one doesn't seem to notice or is not acknowledging his warning.


    Then bigger one barks and lounges to chase him away


    And little one rolls on his back. HE rolls. He was NOT rolled over. The bigger one snaps AROUND little one, he does not bite for real.


    It all happened in a split of a second. My camera was set to take series of snapshots. It was not my intention to take photos of "attack" on purpose, but it sure comes handy They are best buddies and play all day long, sleep together, even eat together. But there are limits and they learned how to respect one another.
    That is no where near what my dog dose as he never bears teeth & would only actully touch the dog if nessercy.

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