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Thread: Cesar Vs. Victoria.

  1. #41

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    I have also seen it happen in my home where certain dogs just will not give it up,so the 'alpha' dog helps things along.
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  2. #42
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    Caesar all the way. I have seen a fair few episodes where Caesar has used food rewards, it depends on the dog and the problem. IMO he uses positive reinforcement alot.

  3. #43

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    I have to say I have seen many dogs use an alpha roll to put another dog in their place.
    Bubba use a growl first, paw swip next & then comes the roll he has sorted many dogs I could not, or at least got it started for me.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristin View Post
    Caesar all the way. I have seen a fair few episodes where Caesar has used food rewards, it depends on the dog and the problem. IMO he uses positive reinforcement alot.
    Very true, a number of episodes spring to mind where the majority of his work was training with food rewards and then having the owner continue the same training.

    One of the saddest episodes of Cesar that I watched was when a woman had 2 min pins and tried getting Cesar to help with obedience, which he did, and then she decided after he left that it was all too hard and had one of the min pins euthanised (and then told Cesar after the fact). He mentioned it and the end of the episode and it seemed to upset him a lot that the dog was PTS rather than rehomed, or even given to him to rehome (which he does a lot too if the dog and owner just aren't compatible).

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by MissTeaAddict View Post
    Very true, a number of episodes spring to mind where the majority of his work was training with food rewards and then having the owner continue the same training.

    One of the saddest episodes of Cesar that I watched was when a woman had 2 min pins and tried getting Cesar to help with obedience, which he did, and then she decided after he left that it was all too hard and had one of the min pins euthanised (and then told Cesar after the fact). He mentioned it and the end of the episode and it seemed to upset him a lot that the dog was PTS rather than rehomed, or even given to him to rehome (which he does a lot too if the dog and owner just aren't compatible).
    Ceaser gets my respect for the fact he often takes on dogs himself at no cost when the owners can't cope & rehabs & homes them.

  6. #46

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    My take on the Alpha roll is a bit different to many.
    When I've seen two dogs have a power struggle several things tend to happen most times.
    1 The two dogs have an all out fight and one dog wins - sometimes the loser submits by rolling on its back and exposing the throat.
    2 The dogs fight and the loser runs away with its tail between its legs.
    3 The dog that submits rolls on its back and exposes the throat by it's own choice without a fight or struggle.

    When I've noticed a so called Alpha roll the dog submitting does so willingly and is hardly ever forced into that position. The only time I've seen a dog forced into that position is when the dominant dog is much larger than the other dog, and it was more of a mauling than anything else.
    I've noticed pups do something much closer to an Alpha roll during play, but not so much older dogs.

    I still think Cesar has a good understanding of how to establish leadership with problem dogs, and he only seems to use the amount of force needed. Many are being saved from being put down so I think his methods have some merit. I don't think his methods are the only way or the best, but he does get results.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazydog View Post
    I have to say I have seen many dogs use an alpha roll to put another dog in their place.
    Bubba use a growl first, paw swip next & then comes the roll he has sorted many dogs I could not, or at least got it started for me.
    Actually, dogs DO NOT use alpha roll, so humans can't go and shake their dogs or put them on their back in order to "reduce their rank". It is plain stupid.

    When dominant dog approaches, or charges or is annoyed with another, that other dog lies on its back on its own. It isn't forced into the position by more dominant dog. It is actually hard to notice because it happens in seconds, but it's true. Subordinate dog will lie on its back on it's own, not because another dog forces it on its back. It is survival mechanism that is imprinted.

    I have never EVER seen a dog forcing another onto the ground (I am not talking about full blown fights). Nor have I seen a bitch pressing her pups and forcing them onto their backs or shaking them the way humans do. Yes, she would snap at them, bite their snouts or paw them, but they roll over by themselves. I wish I had some slow motion videos to prove that.

    YouTube - Alpha Rolls in Wolves

    Check out how black dog lies down on its own (@ 0,24 sek)

    YouTube - Cooper pins Walker

    YouTube - dog fight.wmv

    And these are my own dogs:

    Bigger one (Flick) is sniffing somehing that has a value. He is a bit possessive. Small one comes and wants to check what's there. Bigger one gives him a warning look, but little one doesn't seem to notice or is not acknowledging his warning.


    Then bigger one barks and lounges to chase him away


    And little one rolls on his back. HE rolls. He was NOT rolled over. The bigger one snaps AROUND little one, he does not bite for real.


    It all happened in a split of a second. My camera was set to take series of snapshots. It was not my intention to take photos of "attack" on purpose, but it sure comes handy They are best buddies and play all day long, sleep together, even eat together. But there are limits and they learned how to respect one another.
    Last edited by Fedra; 01-12-2011 at 08:00 PM.
    Respect and you shall be respected. Animal is always right.

  8. #48

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    Why would you shake your dog in an alpha roll?????????????
    I think your idea of an alpha roll & mine are quiet different.
    I asure you my dog dose use a roll over technic to put other dogs in line. He uses his position as the top of the pack to put them in a submisssive position to demernstarte his domaince & that they have stepped out of line. And a dog that dose not submitt is barged into the same position with brute force.
    I however use exsperaince, posture & a guiding hand but if the dog wasn't submitting it's not going to go down with force & learn anything.
    As soon as you use brute strengh a dog goes into fight or flight mode & are unable to learn whilst in this stae. So doing an alpha roll by force(as a human) will get you nowhere & dog will not even learn anything from it.

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by aussiemyf7 View Post
    Dogs do it in the wild.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChoppaChop View Post
    How else would you do it then if you dont mind me asking Smeagle? It is exactly how a dog would handle it?

    edit as I bugga'd up the quotes
    Quote Originally Posted by ChoppaChop View Post
    Most dogs will Hya.
    And then there are the few who think they are the Lion King lol
    It has/does happen in the wild when needed.
    I totally agree with Hyacinth and Fedra. That "dogs and wolves do it in the wild" are a myth, nothing more.

    I'd prefer not to teach my dogs that force is what determines who is the alpha. Trying to control or dominate a dog through force because you are being bigger and stronger has so much potential for disaster. It also means you have to ensure you ARE bigger and stronger EVERY time. Is that worth the risk? Considering there are many other ways to teach respect and provide leadership? And ultimately - a true alpha does not need to use force in that way, lower pack members choose to submit out of respect.

    Choppa, when you ask me how else I would do it, what are you referring to? Handling an aggressive dog? Because it honestly surprises me to think that people believe the only way to handle an aggro dog is to force it to the ground and stand over it. Not only could it make a fear aggressive dog far, far worse but if you do it to a rank aggressive dog you will get your face bitten off. We KNOW there are better and more effective ways to handle aggressive dogs. I have no desire to confront an aggressive dog in such a manner, the risk is just not worth it IMO.


    ETA: I have seen other dogs do what people here would describe as an "alpha roll". It broke free from its collar, ran over to my dog and grabbed her by the neck, pinned her to the ground and shook her. It is so far from acceptable dog behaviour especially considering the way my dog was screaming and screaming to be let go, it took two people to pull him off of her. To think that some people condone this behaviour and even try to emulate it would be laughable if it wasn't so disgusting and dangerous.
    Last edited by Bec; 01-12-2011 at 08:24 PM.

  10. #50
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    I agree with all the above posts regarding alpha rolling being something the submissive dog does itself. And have seen in dog fights a dog submit by rolling although it can appear it has been forced there it is in fact rolling in an attempt to admit defeat.

    I have never alpha rolled any of my dogs, though they do roll for me if they think I am angry (that's not the right way to put it but I am sure most people get what I am trying to say). I do not use any physical force with my dogs at all in fact and don't need to because a look or a stern voice is enough.

    I don't understand why anyone would do an alpha roll...for any reason and especially not on an aggressive dog. Why to make them a happy well rounded dog by forcing them to the ground

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