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Thread: Cesar Vs. Victoria.

  1. #11
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    Lady Gaga

  2. #12

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    I not keen on Victoria but use some of her methods.
    I like Ceaser but only use what I agree with.
    I think Vic methods are ok for your average pet dog but would not work with some of the aggressive dogs I've had.
    I like to take bits from all different trainers & never advice anyone to soley follow 1 trainers advice, shop around see what works for you & your dog.

  3. #13
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    Victoria has had success with some extremely aggressive dogs without making them terrified of her.

    I haven't watched enough Cesar Milan but what I have watched, and observed in his name - sometimes freaks me out. The alpha roll - where a dog gets its head squished into the ground - I've never seen that work for anyone except Cesar and I think he gets it to work by the "avoidance" principles ie the dog feels better when he lets go. Ie similar technique when using an e collar or prong collar (and unlike Victoria - I do believe those can be used successfully but like Victoria - not by any of her customers who have clearly demonstrated they do not have what it takes to make those adversive tools work). So avoidance / escape - you apply an unpleasant stimulus and release it as the dog complies with what you want, eg comes closer to you. Or stops struggling in the case of alpha roll.

    But the trouble with Adversives, is that you can do a great deal of harm with them. So it's not the greatest idea to make a TV show that uses them because the people who are having problems with their dogs - need one on one supervision with a really good people-dog trainer, they will not have any success just by trying an adversive without any guidance (or by copying Cesar).

    So Victoria's methods being all positive, the worst that can happen by copying them wrong is that the dog gets fat.

  4. #14

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    I think alot is done in Ceasers name that he would not approve of.
    True that vic's methods are harmless & misused & misunderstood Ceaser methods may not be.
    I agree that poeple have trouble using what they have seen without a trainer to help them. Timing is so important & so many poeple have terrible timming & just don't know it.
    With help they could have it pointed out & corrected but a telly show will not really help them.

  5. #15

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    This is a contentious issue and many people are firmly in one camp or the other, but I find you have to be versatile with dogs and be willing to try something different if you aren't getting the results you're after.
    There is a least one website devoted to hating Cesar, but I've also seen a few dogs trained with only positive reinforcement that rule the house and their owners.
    So I suppose it depends on the dog in question.

    But as for Cesars methods, they must be put into context and the dominant aggressive approach is only for older problem dogs.
    Don't try it home with your new puppy when it's imprinting it's view of the world or you could seriously mess it up.
    Puppies need to know their place but never be scared out of their wits.

  6. #16
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    I've also seen a few dogs trained with only positive reinforcement that rule the house and their owners.
    I've seen this too and I'd still blame the owners lack of dog training skill or knowledge.

    Susan Garrett is an all positive trainer - though she does use "absence of reward" for corrections or guiding the dog. And her dogs do not rule the roost. Well not directly. She has had her whole home customised to accomodate dogs and dog training.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sierra View Post
    Cesar focuses on dog psychology and training the human re: their needs, which in my opinion is more important. He is putting out there that dogs need regular exercise, boundaries, and to be treated as an animal rather than a human. I take methods from all over with my dogs. Cesar's method of flooding, for example, would no way work with Carl. He is simply too fear aggressive and Cesar's hand would be taken off before he knew it. Jag responds well to firm discipline and needs regular work or he falls back to old habits. Carl is far too sensitive an individual; hurt him once verbally or physically and he will not forget. He only needs to be told something once, which saves a lot of time and effort.

    Positive reinforcement is key in Carl's rehab which is why I like some of Victoria's methods. I use clicker training with him, not that she advocates it, but it is how I found out about it initially.

    Also, what is up with her hair? She reminds me of a brunette Lady Gaga...
    Victoria also talks about setting boundaries, regular exercise and very much tries to train the human. Have to admit I never noticed the boots or the hair. When people started talking about her domatrix look I had to take a more detailed look to see what they were talking about.

    I have only ever seen one of Cesars shows and wasnt hugely impressed but he has obviously done some good things for dog ownership from all accounts. I would need to see more to form a better opinion.

    I too have rehabbed a severely fear aggressive dog and flooding would have made her a complete basket case and put her into meltdown. She responded much better to the type of methods that Victoria uses. I had to use desensitisation/counter conditioning psychology on her to help rewire her brain. I dont think it was the type of psychology Cesar uses though.

    I found myself an excellent trainer who was well versed in showing me how to work with my fear aggressive dog using these methods and the importance of timing and reading the dog. That is when I really learnt.
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 01-11-2011 at 01:29 PM.

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalacreek View Post
    Victoria also talks about setting boundaries, regular exercise and very much tries to train the human. Have to admit I never noticed the boots or the hair. When people started talking about her domatrix look I had to take a more detailed look to see what they were talking about.

    I have only ever seen one of Cesars shows and wasnt hugely impressed but he has obviously done some good things for dog ownership from all accounts. I would need to see more to form a better opinion.

    I too have rehabbed a severely fear aggressive dog and flooding would have made her a complete basket case and put her into meltdown. She responded much better to the type of methods that Victoria uses. I had to use desensitisation/counter conditioning psychology on her to help rewire her brain. I dont think it was the type of psychology Cesar uses though.

    I found myself an excellent trainer who was well versed in showing me how to work with my fear aggressive dog using these methods and the importance of timing and reading the dog. That is when I really learnt.
    Those last 2 sentences are so very very true. Timing & reading your dog are to me the NO 1 important point to watch when training any animal anything no matter what training methods you use.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bundybear View Post
    but I've also seen a few dogs trained with only positive reinforcement that rule the house and their owners.
    So I suppose it depends on the dog in question.
    It actually in my opinion depends on the person in question and their understanding of positive reinforcement and how to use it in training. I generally get much better results with positive reinforcement but it is not just waving a treat around. It has taken me several years and still learning on how to use it to its best advantage. It is an art but worth the learning.

    Many of the top WA agility and obedience dogs are trained using positive reinforcement in fact Australias top 2 obedience dogs are, and they work with such joy and are so beautifully behaved. Their trainers are masters of the art of training using positive reinforcement.

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalacreek View Post
    It actually in my opinion depends on the person in question and their understanding of positive reinforcement and how to use it in training. I generally get much better results with positive reinforcement but it is not just waving a treat around. It has taken me several years and still learning on how to use it to its best advantage. It is an art but worth the learning.
    Good point, it wasn't so much the dogs as the half hearted approach the owners had taken in their attempts at training.
    They did tend to use the treats as lures so they never really grasped the concept.

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