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Thread: Kelpie Regressing

  1. #21
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    turks

    what the others said about winning and losing tug.

    As long as your dog brings you the tug back and/or releases it when you ask - you're in charge in every way that matters.

    Training that involves lots of positive re-inforcement ie getting it right a lot and getting praise/pats/treats/games of tug (lots of rewards) is great for building a dog's confidence. The more they can do what you want and know they're getting it right - the better. Ie when you're training, make it easy for them to get right when they're learning...

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalacreek View Post
    I think the alpha role is pretty obsolete as far as training goes and certainly not appropriate for timid dogs.. and no it doesnt have anything to do with shouting, but shouting isnt useful either a means of expressing displeasure. Two separate actions not suitable for timid dogs.
    I was unsure why you even brought it up as no one has told him to take an alpha role with this timid dog. I really think you have learnt about alpha roles off some nut who takes it to the extreme & I know there are plenty out there. You seem to see it as some harsh over bearing training toil & for me it's away to keep happy stable dogs & is more about how I interact with my dogs on a daily basis. For training I am more likely to use desentization methods, make them work 4 their food & clikker training.
    I am not sure about draining her energy first before training, I think it depends on you and the dog. I usually have a short game of tug first and then get straight in to training, using the fresh energy to work with but that is how I like to train. Train play, train play in that sort of cycle. The dog then becomes primed for a training session and heads out really look forward to it.
    Yes good for a trained dog but my thinking was this was an over exicable young dog & she would have better luck concertrating on the training if she wasn't so full of beans. I also find exercise like a jog on the lead can be very calming for timid dogs also & puts them in a better frame of mind for accepting new lessons.
    With my BC I will somtimes burn energy before I train him on sheep.
    I think it's great to have different poeple getting good results with different training methods, it gives you some great ideas also.

  3. #23
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    Turks asked about the alpha roll - flattening the dog hard to the ground on its back. I misspelt it as role.

    My Kelpie was very untrained and timid. I jog around with her on the lead changing directions and play a bit of tug and do recalls. A mix of exercise and training. I found if I let her burn around when I first took her out she would become obssessed with chasing and running and it was difficult to focus her. Now when we head out she knows we are going to train and becomes a lot more focussed. Just what worked for her - could be different for another dog.

    No I dont learn things off nuts LOL. The people I have had lessons from and train with are probably some of the most successfull trialing people in Australia! and of course I use my own experience.
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 12-22-2010 at 06:29 PM.

  4. #24
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    I would never do a Alpha roll with a average Kelpie. A dog would have to be very aggressive for me to do a Alpha roll. Personally i do not like them. And have used them only when things have been really bad. As when one dog tries to kill another dog.
    I also go for the treat what you want......And I would work on recalls on a long lead. With lots of rewards and positive play, when you pup recalls. Also when you do get your dog to recall, touch the collar everytime and make it positive and happy. And never ever tell your dogs off when they come. Even when i am cross with mine, if they come I am happy and nice and full of praise. it will be too late anyway, they are already in another moment.
    We also have ropes with milk bottles hanging out of one of our trees. our newfie pup loves these to bump and play with. And there is always the good old-fashioned bone. My dogs spend hours with their bones.
    I also think that interactive play is better then actually having your dog running along with you, catch games, throw games and i still think agility is really good for Kelpies. you don't have to have sheep.
    Pets are forever

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by newfsie View Post
    I also think that interactive play is better then actually having your dog running along with you, catch games, throw games and i still think agility is really good for Kelpies. you don't have to have sheep.
    For agility you need both. I start with interactive and then do follow the finger. For agility the dog has to know how to recall to heel and follow your body movements along side you, this is where shadow handling comes in. You can carry treats or an interactive toy while doing this to reward. I teach my dogs all their front and rear crosses like this.

    My kelpie is very sensitive and will panic if I get too close or rear cross behind her so I do lots of her running at heel to establish her confidence in being close to me and me moving around her. I do lots of accelerating and collection to get her confident to run and slow next to me - all essential skills for agility.

  6. #26

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    Sorry about the misunderstanding as I find the so called alpha roll of not must use with most dogs & think it's exercises like this that have poeple thinking thats what it's albout so sorry again. I had also forget he even said that back in the beginning.
    Yes for sure o burn it's better to burn energy with training not hooning(not what I meant) but not the training that is new with a timid dog is all I meant.
    Sorry I did not mean you learn what you use off nuts as I can see your no foul. I just wonder what you think the alphs role is in general?
    Yeh I reakon agility would be great once he has her going well on lesh he could start & move up to off lesh, couldn't he?

  7. #27
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    Of course I am the boss when I need to be. I try and train my dogs using positive reinforcement and really capturing all the good stuff they do, so I rarely have to throw my weight around. But if I have to I do. My dogs dont doubt I am the big kahoona and they love to try and please me because they trust me and know I will reward for a job well done.

  8. #28
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    I have never seen the alpha roll where you hold a dog down by the head until it submits achieve anything useful - except on the cesar milan show. And even then he does it with dogs that are trying to eat him. I would not try it with a dog that was trying to attack me.

    I have seen it cause the dog considerable fear and panic and all sorts of bad things result from that. Ie fall out. Even if the dog eventually opts for "freeze" mode instead of fight/flight it doesn't learn anything useful or understand why you made it so frightened. It just becomes scared of you. Which won't help you train it and will make it likely to fight/flight next time it sees you.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    I have never seen the alpha roll where you hold a dog down by the head until it submits achieve anything useful - except on the cesar milan show. And even then he does it with dogs that are trying to eat him. I would not try it with a dog that was trying to attack me.

    I have seen it cause the dog considerable fear and panic and all sorts of bad things result from that. Ie fall out. Even if the dog eventually opts for "freeze" mode instead of fight/flight it doesn't learn anything useful or understand why you made it so frightened. It just becomes scared of you. Which won't help you train it and will make it likely to fight/flight next time it sees you.
    Totally agree, no dog can learn when it's shut down due to fear. Same with horses you need a dog calm or it will not remember anything you try to teach it. It is impossible to learn whilst in a fight or flight mood.

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