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Thread: TOT Issues Plus Other Stuff...

  1. #1

    Default TOT Issues Plus Other Stuff...

    Hi all,
    we recently took on a rescue dalmatian who we fell completely in love with- cut a long story short- he died after 12 weeks (and we were very devestated).
    So- we have now taken on a 5 yr old beagle. He has NO manners at all! We have had him 2 days. Just trying to get him to sit is a nightmare. I had just finished level 1 training with the dally, so its very fresh in my head (food rewards), and hubby is at the first night of dog club for the beagle as I type.

    Issues I need help with:
    Triangle of temptation- complete disaster. He is hyper about the food, wont look at me, barking, howling, half strangling himself on the leash. After 10 min I had to just let him eat- the children were crying, it felt terrible. (we had great success with TOT with the daly- he was much more "open" to the idea).

    Barking- not used to a dog that barks. He is barking when we are out and about (at dogs/cats etc)- my words of "shush" and "enough" are doing nothing. Tried walking the other way (he half strangled himslef and kept barking). Also barking if tied up (triangle of temptation etc)

    - rushing through doors. I am slaming them in his face, attempting to get him to sit (fat chance- see above).

    - jumping up- almost constant. I am turning my back, avoiding him, saying "no", "get down", rewading him when he is down (food, praise).

    He is working for all food (via kong/ attempted TOT and food rewards), but 48 hrs in and it feels like a losing battle.
    He needs to wk for any privilage at present (not on couches/beds/laps). Getting 2 walks a day of at least 45 min each.
    Are we INSANE????? Dont get me wrong- we have time/love and commitment, but he will change- wont he??

    any words of encouragement/wisdom would be appreciated.

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    Hi Sweetboy

    For TOT you need to work it as long as it takes.

    I do a variation of it though that might be easier with a beagle. I put the dinner down where my dog can see it, and then I make her sit stay. And the first time, she doesn't have to stay very long. Seconds. And then each time I make her wait slightly longer. So intially with crazy dog, I'd be looking for a sit - any sit, with you holding on. Then build up to a sit where you don't have to pull. Eg hold the dog in a sit, and don't release until it stops pulling. You might have to wait a while.

    Then work up to a hands free sit-stay and increase the time on that, but stay standing between your dog and the food. When that's going well start changing the distance between you and the dog. Maybe start by increasing the distance between the dog and dinner, but you stay close to the dog between it and the dinner.

    The main trick is to outlast the dog on whatever system you choose. If you give in after 10 minutes, you teach the dog to act up for 10 minutes. If you give in when the dog has been acting up for 30 minutes... you're teaching it, it will get what it wants, if it just keeps acting up.

    Have you considered a crate or safe room for time outs?

    One of Frosty's favourite friends is a beagle. And she's gradually been getting better at obedience training and not jumping on people at the park. She's not getting better at recall but that is mostly the owner's fault. She knows what she needs to do, but hasn't been doing it.

    Yes beagles can be trained. You MUST be more persistent and outlast the hound dog.

    And you may want to consider getting a front attach harness to deal with the pulling/strangulation problem. (as well as the crate).

    it must attach the lead on the front, so when the dog pulls forward, it gets flipped around backwards ie the pulling forward force gets turned into rotational force and the dog never gets where it is trying to go. You get extra power/leverage in the same way as you can lift more with a wheel barrow, than without.

    I use this front attach harness but there are others, black dog and premier pet make them too.
    Dog Harness, Dog Training Supplies | Sense-ible and Sense-ation Dog Harness

    Be patient. Alert your neighbours. Get your kids earplugs or try again when they're out. Never give in.

  3. #3
    Join Date
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    I don't do TOT. It doesn't suit me for various reasons. My dogs must stand for food and just be calm, I have time for that and it's achievable.

    IMO when you start something you've got to finish it. So if you can't "hold out" with the TOT do something else.

    Moulding a younger puppy is fairly easy, trying the same things on an older dog can sometimes be more of a challenge, don't beat yourself up about it and just set a few goals at a time.

    Talk less to this type of dog, saying no etc is not penetrating. I would start with a conditioned reinforcer so you can mark correct behaviour.

    And I'd walk the feet off this dog and then train straight afterwards. Keep going to your obedience club, even join two, I used to be a member of 3 clubs and I'd train on a Sunday, Monday & Tuesday and do agility on a Thursday.

    Cate on the forum has good experience with beagles you might like to contact her.

  4. #4

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    Thanks- just needed to vent. Interesting re TOT, I had thought it was the be all and end all of training..... Actually- the pulling is not too bad if walking without distraction- its when the cats etc come on the path that the real show starts.
    DH said that the trainer last night said (upon hearing we had a beagle) "I feel sorry for you".
    Anyway- I really dont want our second attempt at rescue dog this year to be a disaster!

  5. #5
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    TOT is great for some people/dogs, just not me. And I believe that if you don't do something with conviction with a dog it's not worth doing. So if your getting worked up because the kids are getting worked up or because your worried the neighbours might complain etc then it just makes it that bit harder - but not impossible.

    When I worked in kennels we would have lots of beagles come in, most were happy go lucky, easy to feed, loved to go out in the exercise yards, easy to mingle with other dogs etc. They tended to come in two speeds though, full-on or overfed and lazy.

    They also took rescue beagles and trained them for various work. So I got an opportunity to see them at their very best which they are more than capable of. These dogs were normally rejects because they were hyper over the top food crazy beagles. These were the ones my boss loved.

    I've seen them trained as termite dogs, and for fruit and veg detection.

    I remember when one that had been thru the in-house training prior to being trained up for a specific job was given to an NDTF student. This particular little beagle put it all over the student, but once in the hands of the lecturer was an entirely different dog.

    I also show in the hound ring so see lots of beagles, very few of them put it over their handlers, they can gait without putting their nose to the ground, stand still, have their teeth & other body parts inspected, stand still on the table and spend time in their crates without protest and in comparison to the Dachshund are quiet.

    Your rescue sounds like he comes with some naughty baggage.

    Again I think Cate is worth contacting she has lots of experience with beagles.

  6. #6

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    Im not a tot fan, I can't see the point. My dogs sit andstay with out ever doing it! good luck with it all

    www.cinspets.com.au
    I am doing Relay For Life in 2011, please contact me to make a donation

  7. #7
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweetboy View Post
    Thanks- just needed to vent. Interesting re TOT, I had thought it was the be all and end all of training..... Actually- the pulling is not too bad if walking without distraction- its when the cats etc come on the path that the real show starts.
    DH said that the trainer last night said (upon hearing we had a beagle) "I feel sorry for you".
    Anyway- I really dont want our second attempt at rescue dog this year to be a disaster!
    Just to add (and I mean NO offence to MAC) that I regually use TOT here for the pei and SBT and without it I would be lost!!!! I am a big believer in it, works wonders for me!!
    SPR fosters:Rowland, Matrix, Mia, Arizona, Romeo, Wrinkles, George, Molly, Su Lin, Ellie, Charlie, Charlotte, Lulu, Montana http://www.sharpeirescue.com.au

  8. #8
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    No offense taken Shar.

    As I said if you believe in something you do it with conviction and the dogs know it.

    For me I take the opportunity of meal time to get good "free stacks" for the show ring, standing off and away from me, sometimes I'll wait for the mouth to shut or do a stand for examination.

    For obedience dogs I always used - sit, stay, bowl down and then release.

    My dogs are walked a lot and over long distances. After that not much else happens except sleep.

  9. #9
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    Anything where the dog has to develop some self control before it gets what it wants, is a variation on triangle of temptation. Ie it wants something, it's tempted by it, but it must act with self control before you let release it to get what it wants.

    So I think the sniffer dogs have to work for every tiny bit of food they get, and the only food they get comes from their handlers. So if you have a bowl full of kibble, you can work through each bit to get a better outcome.

    You need to set it up so the first step is easy for the dog to achieve / figure out. And gradually build on that for the rest of it.

  10. #10

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    ok- well attempted TOT- the start where they are tied up while you prepare the meal, dont go out to hysterical dog etc. Waited 3 HOURS for dog to stop jumping/barking/howling, even for 1 min. After 3 hrs decided this was plain cruel and stopped.
    Instead I have been getting dog to "sit"- still takes approx 5 to 10 min and there is no "stay" involved at all. As soon as he "sits" he gets the food. Once we have this perfected (at this stage could be a while) will try to prolong the sit into a "stay". The final goal is "sit, stay, bowl down and then release".

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