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Thread: Prong Collars, Why?

  1. #31
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    Great posts, Liza.

    I don't see anything wrong with these, personally. I use a "Halti" collar- but that was only to control excessive pulling (he does not pull with this on, so I do not have to "yank" at him at all).

    Mimi, your opinion is your own. It's not mine and obviously other people's either. Regardless of whether dogs are still wolves or not is irrelevant. When you get a big group of dogs, they may snap at each other (and even cause the other pain) to tell each other what they do not like. Dogs do use force. That's not, of course, to say you have to.

  2. #32
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    These type of leads are to are to mimic perhaps a mother dog correcting her pup. A mother dog will teach her puppies to stop doing something she doesn't want them to do, such as using their teeth on her teet. The mother will do something her pups perceive as unpleasant to get them to stop. The pups will learn that if they use their teeth on her they know that they'll get nailed by mummy and if they don't they get licked. So the pups will learn not to use their teeth on mummy.

    The collars are used similarly to create an unpleasant experience with a check, (which is a quick tug on the leash and then released tension on the lead) that the dog will learn to avoid by stopping unwanted behaviour just as the mother dog did by snapping at her pups.
    I have used a a nylon choke lead on my Obie when he was young, I adjusted it to fit higher up on the neck so it wasnt choking him at the bottom area of the neck. I barely used any force on the check and Obie got the message, with this negative reinforcement i also used alot of praise and got fast results. Once he knew how to act i no longer had to use it and i could walk him safely.

    I believe the prong collar has a place, as some dogs have a very high discomfort threshold and would not feel any unpleasantness using the nylon leads no matter where you had it on the neck, so the check would'nt have any efffect and the dog would not learn to accept responsibilty for his behaviour.
    The prong collar does look a bit scary though I must admit.

    I also think that people do need to be educated in using any of these collars as I've seen people jerk the crap out of their dogs with no clue about how to use them properly. I think some people think that the collars are used for punishment and not training.

    Just my 2 cents worth.
    Last edited by Obie16813; 11-12-2009 at 07:40 PM.

  3. #33
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    Mimi1, you will not win an argument by being a radical or an extremist. You see your form of extremism as being positive - and I was like that for a long time. However, these days, I no longer trust anyone who pushes one method alone or anyone who dismisses a method without giving it due consideration.

    I suggested at training last week that a clicker was more accurate than my voice and was basically told that was rot. I lose respect for people when they are so extremely dismissive.

    At the moment you are being very much like that

    YES - pinch collars look terrible

    YES - they are not a first tool

    However, you should have all of the tools in your training box so that you can deal with any situation

    You say that you are not a dog trainer - fine - then don't enter discussions about dog training unless you are able to provide real life anecdotes that provide some sort of help or entertainment.

    Pinch collars do FAR less damage than choker chains - and I use neither with Doof who learned, eventually, not to pull.

    I'm so glad that you had success using purely positive with your dog - however - it is not realistic to expect any dog to have no negatives in its life. Life has a balance. I knew someone who believed in positives only and her dog was a wreck in any environment that had noise or movement.

    What happens on that day when your dog gets away from you and runs towards the road? Tell you what happened with Cappy? He stopped when I finally remembered his stop command - how had I taught him? I had him on lead and called STOP just before he hit the end of the lead. It worked - it saved his life - it was not purely positive.

    I've worn both a choker chain and a pinch collar - I prefer the latter!

    Saying that - doof has a leather collar with a chain that makes it a martingale - we just got it and it will be ace for what we need.

  4. #34

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    *sigh* It's all starting up again. I just feel like crying right now.

    I'll save you all the trouble of telling me just "where to go because what would you know" ....

    I'll admit it ..... my fault entirely for just popping in & having "just a quick look". I already know what you'll say .... "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen bitch" ......

    It shouldn't have to get to the point of "Shit !! I'd better not open this thread or I'll get upset at all the frigging fights that are going on." And ... "Holy shit !! What will happen to me if I do post a comment" after you've read several pages of argument & "counter foil".

    Shame on all of you for behaving so badly. You're not animals. You're human beings & you're supposed to be "House Trained".

    I like this forum, because the people I've met on-line & in person so far, are kind, considerate, caring human beings who are respectful of their fellow forum members & have a genuine love of their dogs.

    I understand that you have strong opinions and are passionate in your beliefs. I also understand that you should be allowed to voice those opinions without restraint. Please also try to understand this ...

    Some of us (myself included) are very intimidated by what is posted & the "tone" that is used. Reading some of the inflamitory text that is written & some of the posts that result because of it, makes a lot of us more sensitive types go "No way I'm going to post now." when we just may have something to offer by way of experience that may be of value to the conversation ... but of course we won't post for fear of being shot down in flames, will we ...

    Thank you for your time .... I would just ask that you try (I know it's difficult) to maintain your composure when posting for the benefit of all the members reading the posts.

    This post took a long time to write for fear of offending some forum members & the ensuing back lash it might create. I can only say in response ... whilst I might be shit scared right now of what you'll all say ... I believe I have enough "balls" to "feel the fear & do it anyway".

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimi1 View Post
    hear hear Aussie. Liza, there was a thread on this forum about training the owners rather than the dogs. That 99% of the time it is the owners' fault if the dog is unruly! I believe this to be true.
    K9: Ok I agree, in a 2 hour consult at leasat 75% of the time is training the owner, but when the dog has become unruly, sometimes just crossed fingers & firm but gentle guidance isnt enough.


    I have had dogs all my life. Throughout my childhood we had Dobermann and later when I married, I had a poodle, a Fox Terrier, a Pomeranian, a Jack Russell and Mimi who is of medium size and believed to be part Bull Terrier and part Jack Russell (she is too tall to be either). Your dog responds to YOU. YOU are the one to set its temperament right and curb its excesses.
    K9: Sure but some dogs ahve natural desire to chase for example, no amount if guidance will correct a dog that has had success in a chase.

    To use force is to be cruel.
    K9: No, its not.

    It is as simple as that.
    K9: In your world it is, in the real world it isnt simple at all.
    Perhaps many who have problems are first time owners of a pet who choose the wrong pet. Having a GSD or a Rottwheiler as a pet for the first time is not a sensible thing to do.
    K9: Rubbish, your a very breed specific person I see. But when you were a child I read it was fine for you to start with a Doberman, perhaps that was a mistake?

    I know a lady who got herself a GR female dog as she needed companionship. She never owned a pet of any kind in her life. It was the most gentle and most beautiful specimen you could find UNTIL she took it to training at a Commando type place. From an angel, this dog became so agressive, showed its teeth and bit her each time she put her hand close. She would sit on her (as she was taught at the commando class!) until she stopped growling!!!!
    K9: I am waving the BS flag here, why would they have a lady sit on a perfectly good dog to STOP it from growling? Stop it means it was growling in the first place.

    This is a made up story.

    It seems that you place anmyone that doesnt do your style of training in a group called the commandos, how wrong you are, this is where racism started & now BSL...

    I HATED HER.
    K9: so far I have mentioned the proing collar, you have replied with insults, lies & now hatred...

    That was a BEAUTIFUL dog!!! She ruined it. It had reached the point where the dog had lost all trust in her. She was going to put it down. Then, by some miracle, she stopped taking her to those classes and decided to be gentler with her so as to regain her trust. The GR is ok now but still growls when you pet her. If it was a child, you would call it abuse
    K9: First, its not a child, second the gentle method hasnt worked, it STILL growls, your proving yourself wrong.
    Steve Courtney, K9 Pro - The K9 Professionals

    www.k9pro.com.au

    Official Forum Trainer and Behaviourist

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimi1 View Post
    "Dogs and wolves use force in the wild, they respond to it."
    Liza, this doesn't make sense. When was the time when the dogs were wolves? Things have changed since. Do you still have the instinct to hunt and kill for your food? This is what prehistoric man did!
    K9: Interesting that Liza is wrong as dogs have eveloved, but they havent evloved since you were a child.
    Steve Courtney, K9 Pro - The K9 Professionals

    www.k9pro.com.au

    Official Forum Trainer and Behaviourist

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimi1 View Post
    I am not a trainer and don't want to be one. So thanks. Not interested.
    K9: I always find it amazing how people can give advice but when asked to show what they can do with a dog or show their dogs, they always gracefully bow out.

    The keyboard makes people so powerful doesnt it.
    Steve Courtney, K9 Pro - The K9 Professionals

    www.k9pro.com.au

    Official Forum Trainer and Behaviourist

  8. #38
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    Too much for me to reply too, but I'll say...

    - A halti and a gentle leader are two different things. Its a yes for gentle leaders, and a no for haltis(IMO)
    -I have dealt with messed up necks due to prong collars.
    -As I have said twice, and Occy has backed me up. Im sure they work but there are better alternatives. I think it should be a last resort. Lady was a hideous leash walker until her GL, and now she walks beautifully without. It does train.
    -I only use negative 'punishment', when I know the dogs knows what he/she is doing, and that it is wrong. Never during the learning process.
    Education not Legislation

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimi1 View Post
    So let's torture them, kick them, call them names!
    K9: Now were dog abusers? Wow you sure do draw a long bow.


    OMG Liza you begin to sound like an advertisement. You mention K9 too often for it to be legit.
    K9: I dont know what you mean by legit, buty I have no idea sho Liza is?
    Steve Courtney, K9 Pro - The K9 Professionals

    www.k9pro.com.au

    Official Forum Trainer and Behaviourist

  10. #40
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    Halti's, GLs, pinch collars, etc in and of themselves DO NOT teach a dog not to pull - they are tools to help you teach the dog not to pull. Don't teach the dog and when the tool is removed you have the problem back!

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