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Thread: Prong Collars, Why?

  1. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalacreek View Post
    The owner of the kelpie has no need for a sheep dog in a farm setting. He wants to win 3 sheep trials. Not all dogs are suited to 3 sheep trialing but they could make much better working farm dogs. I am not sure my young strong hot headed BC is going to be a good 3 sheep dog but he moves mobs of 200 like a pro LOL. Moving 3 sheep through obstacles on a course, we will see as he matures! no hurry, just setting the foundations.
    S: well it is not uncommon to find a dog that doesn't fit into a certain home, but its rare that the dog has no value somewhere...
    Steve Courtney, K9 Pro - The K9 Professionals

    www.k9pro.com.au

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  2. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by k9force View Post
    S: well it is not uncommon to find a dog that doesn't fit into a certain home, but its rare that the dog has no value somewhere...
    That is true, just depends if people can be bothered to find their dog the right home. From what I have seen often not, I guess. I just believe that if you research a breed, find a good breeder, make time to train the dog a lot of issues would go away. My family have had over 30 dogs and never had to even consider rehoming any of them, even through bad times and quite a lot of moving. Most of my doggy friends would also fall into this category.

    My rescues are turning out great with some training, beats my why anyone dumped - well I do know inexperienced owner buys 2 farm bred puppies together from the same litter because they like the merle colour and cant choose between a red and a blue and puts them on their 1 acre to work their 2 goats without any training, thinking they were born to do it and then realises they need to be um trained. Hello!

    Anyway I do agree with most of what you say I just see so much stupidity and sadness in working with pounds and rescue, sometimes I could scream.

  3. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by k9force View Post
    Yeah, right. One no-name against so many different renowned veterinary bihaviourists, ethologists and trainers who know, have seen and have experienced otherwise :/ Sorry, I just don't buy it.
    Respect and you shall be respected. Animal is always right.

  4. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedra View Post
    Yeah, right. One no-name against so many different renowned veterinary bihaviourists, ethologists and trainers who know, have seen and have experienced otherwise :/ Sorry, I just don't buy it.
    S: lol ok you asked I gave. There are a dozen others but I will save them.

    I am not trying to convince you Fedra, not trying to argue with you either.

    All good here
    Steve Courtney, K9 Pro - The K9 Professionals

    www.k9pro.com.au

    Official Forum Trainer and Behaviourist

  5. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by k9force View Post
    S: perhaps if the treat isnt valuable to your dog, but studies show that removal or a perceived high value reward induces more stress than corrections.
    It's hard to keep up with this thread but I will give an example from my own life ie shaping me.

    I don't think the value of the treat has much to do with whether the absence is prefered to the pop on the collar...

    I just spent a week with family (mum and sister) away from home and before that a month, with my mum. I admit I am a bit of a hedonist - I like pleasurable things like up market food etc.

    What I really didn't like and debated whether the reward was worth it, was all the negatives I got for things I didn't even know I was doing wrong. I copped continuous negative comment - so no more physically severe than being told "no" sternly I guess. Rules were not explained up front, and I was only told off when I broke these rules, even if the same activity was just fine the day before (eg is it ok or not for me to be in charge of my neice in the pool area? one day it's ok the next it's not being told off for this and other similar or even less important things was intensely stressful.

    Ric Charlesworth had a bit of a reputation for being negative with the team he coached - but when his comments were actually measured and recorded - most of them were neutral or positive (not directive either), a few that rated as negative were "oh no" when something went wrong - not necessarily the fault of the player, and the type of comments they were complaining about were about 3 out of 250 comments - ie 250 positive re-inforcement, and 3 punishment either withdrawal of approval or a negative comment.

    I suspect dog isn't a whole lot different to me. She's pretty soft and sensitive to any upset on my part whether it has anything to do with her or not. So any attempt by me to directly punish her by adding something like a collar correction or yelling or a zap - tends to result in much confusion in her and a shut down in her ability to think clearly (same as what happens to me eg when a jogger yells at me for not having "control" of dog, stops me from acting to get control of dog and upsets both of us - doesn't help the jogger get what he wants at all).

    So I imagine a dog trained to understand what a pop/stim on the collar means might respond appropriately but I find with my general unprofessional level of skill in delivering such correction - that I'm much better off with positive re-inforcement eg praise and treats and play. So even if I fail to make the connection I want in my dog's head, there is no unpleasant fall out. Eg where Spuddy describes their dog being terrified of yank-and-crank instructor in another thread.

    http://www.dogforum.com.au/puppy-dis...so-snappy.html

    It didn't take much of a search for "fallout positive punishment" to turn up a whole book on the subject "Coercian and it's fallout" - Murray Sidmam

    If you think about it, if positive punishment worked - nobody would speed in their cars after getting a speeding fine.

  6. #366

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalacreek View Post
    From what I have seen often not, I guess. I just believe that if you research a breed, find a good breeder, make time to train the dog a lot of issues would go away.
    This is not always the case - sometimes you can do your homework, find what you think is a good breeder (and still believe to be a good breeder) but you still end up with a less then desirably genetically wired specimen. Things happen and you make the best of what you are dealt. Well at least that's my take on it. Although sure I would be foolish to think there haven't been more then a few rough patches were I didn't consider taking the easy option of sending her back to the breeder and finding myself a new dog but hmm only fleeting. I couldn't do it.

    Try going out specifically to purchase your next potential sports pup (obedience and agility are my hobbies) from a reputable breeder only to discover at the age of 16 weeks your potential up and coming sports mate is scared of the world despite all you have done - you have people telling you what she is doing isn't "normal" for a pup, she needs to go and see a vet behaviorist and maybe you should consider writing her off as a performance prospect and just having her as a pet. You tell yourself its a phase and it will resolve eventually - it never does. It just continues to worsen until she is so afraid that even a walk to your local park is stressful. You have a dog who regularly melts down around strangers and yet you still know deep down she has so much potential your not willing to quit.

    You make the decision to contact this fellow by the name of Steve (K9Pro) after all you have read on another forum but your still not 100% convinced, after all there is all this talk of "prong collars" on his website. You have a consult and decide to give the training in drive program a go.

    In just over 2 months your shy scardy dog who was suppose to be written off as a performance prospect finishes Runner up in the Novice Jumping Final of the State Agility Champs - barely half as second behind the winner. Not bad for a 400 midget dog who was never going to cut the mustard.

    7 months down the track - not only is the agility coming together well and you finish up the year with your Novice Jumping title with a lovely winning run 8 seconds ahead of the dog who finished second but you now also have a dog who doesn't melt down when there are strange people around (well least only half as much) and who can manage a stand for exam under a person who so badly spooked her at the age of 13 months she could barely function around this person.

    In fact this same dog can now regularly put together pretty decent Obedience patterns when previously she would have totally crumbled.

    We aren't finished yet but we are an awful lot closer to matching my end goals then we were this time last year. Sure she still requires more management then I would like and sure we still have our run of less then stunning days when it all gets to much but ah well she is here to teach me something and certainly has taught me sometimes it pays to be a little more open minded as to who might have something to offer by way of assistance. In actual fact I hazard to say I think she is probably ending up living a far better life as a performance dog/pet then she would ever have as just a pet.

    It also goes to show that times dogs aren't worth writing off just because they might require a little more effort to get going .

    Ooops this has probably gone way off topic for this thread but ah well.
    Last edited by twobcs; 12-11-2010 at 11:29 PM.

  7. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by twobcs View Post
    This is not always the case - sometimes you can do your homework, find what you think is a good breeder (and still believe to be a good breeder) but you still end up with a less then desirably genetically wired specimen. Try going out specifically to purchase your next potential sports pup (obedience and agility are my hobbies) from a reputable breeder only to discover at the age of 16 weeks your potential up and coming sports mate is scared of the world despite all you have done - you have people telling you what she is doing isn't "normal" for a pup, she needs to go and see a vet behaviorist and maybe you should consider writing her off as a performance prospect and just having her as a pet. You tell yourself its a phase and it will resolve eventually - it never does. It just continues to worsen until she is so afraid that even a walk to your local park is stressful. You have a dog who regularly melts down around strangers and yet you still know deep down she has so much potential your not willing to quit.
    Yep been down that track. You could be describing the dog that was to be my little agility star, a dog that turned out so terrified of any strange dog or person and was completely unable to function in public, just shriek and release her anal glands. Like you I found a fantastic trainer and eventually she was doing sit stays in a line up at my dog club and stand for examination. I started agility and obedience with her and she was fast, smart and driven but fate dealt us a second blow- she was diagnosed with elbow dysplasia, which was the end of any thoughts of dog sports as she became permanently slightly lame. What an obedience and agility dog she would have made. I

    She came from a well regarded breeder, I got my last wonderful dog from her, but in this case other elbow dysplastic dogs started to surface along with PRA affected dogs and she wasnt testing for any of it despite these reports starting to come in. I started to see some red flags.

    But yes even good breeders produce dogs with issues. However the liklihood of this happening is very much decreased. An acquaintence of mine bred a kelpie with an extremely poor temperament just because she wanted her to have puppies. The resulting litter produced pups with so many major issues that the whole debacle didnt end well for anyone, least of all the dogs.

    Getting back to the prong collar, the trainer I engaged did not use prong collars and nor did we need to. My dog had brilliant obedience skills. With her it was all about overcoming fear aggression and being able to funtion in public.

    One of my rescue dogs, a little kelpie is extremely timid, I am currently training her for agility. Stacks of potential if we can overcome her extreme shyness.
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 12-12-2010 at 12:34 AM.

  8. #368

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalacreek View Post
    Getting back to the prong collar, the trainer I engaged did not use prong collars and nor did we need to. My dog had brilliant obedience skills. With her it was all about overcoming fear aggression and being able to function in public.

    One of my rescue dogs, a little kelpie is extremely timid, I am currently training her for agility. Stacks of potential if we can overcome her extreme shyness.
    Yeah sorry to have taken this thread off topic LOL - I guess I personally would never use a prong collar but like you don't have dogs that I would consider require one. Both are a sensitive herding breed. Like anything they are just a tool that could be beneficial for some dogs when used correctly and like anything are open to abuse.

    Good luck with your little kelpie with the agility. I have been a little fortunate in that the agility has come pretty easy with no real issues. She seems to have been able to tune out the environment in that context. She can act nervy outside but at the last trial literally dragged me into the ring to compete - a even bigger feat considering the judge who was judging was her nemesis the one that spooked her and she had never forgotten.

    So all the best and don't give up I am sure you will get there .

  9. #369
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    I guess that just goes to show - even K9pro/Steve has methods that work and don't require positive punishment.

    I do understand with certain dogs in certain circumstances in the hands of a very skilled trainer - they might be a useful tool but for me it would be a last resort - as Steve said -to save a dog that would otherwise need putting down for unmanageable aggresssion problems.

    Twobcs - he'll be back when you're not looking...

  10. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    It's hard to keep up with this thread but I will give an example from my own life ie shaping me.

    I don't think the value of the treat has much to do with whether the absence is prefered to the pop on the collar...

    I just spent a week with family (mum and sister) away from home and before that a month, with my mum. I admit I am a bit of a hedonist - I like pleasurable things like up market food etc.

    What I really didn't like and debated whether the reward was worth it, was all the negatives I got for things I didn't even know I was doing wrong. I copped continuous negative comment - so no more physically severe than being told "no" sternly I guess. Rules were not explained up front, and I was only told off when I broke these rules, even if the same activity was just fine the day before (eg is it ok or not for me to be in charge of my neice in the pool area? one day it's ok the next it's not being told off for this and other similar or even less important things was intensely stressful.
    S: how about if you, your mum or your sister all went out to your fav restaurant and when you got there ordered your fav food, it arrived at the table and you broke a rule and mum took away your meal before you got to taste it? how would you feel?

    Would you prefer she let you eat it and tell you that you should have ordered something else?

    I would also suggest that not teaching what is expected, lack of consistency etc may have played a part in how the aversive is measured.

    I suspect dog isn't a whole lot different to me. She's pretty soft and sensitive to any upset on my part whether it has anything to do with her or not. So any attempt by me to directly punish her by adding something like a collar correction or yelling or a zap - tends to result in much confusion in her and a shut down in her ability to think clearly (same as what happens to me eg when a jogger yells at me for not having "control" of dog, stops me from acting to get control of dog and upsets both of us - doesn't help the jogger get what he wants at all).
    S: There are various levels of aversive and of course everyone (dog) is different, I think the point of the study is not to suggest that every dog will react the same, but that not every dog is more stressed by a correction than a removal of a perceived reward.

    I dont know much about the study really, I like it as it reminds us to keep an open mind.

    So I imagine a dog trained to understand what a pop/stim on the collar means might respond appropriately but I find with my general unprofessional level of skill in delivering such correction - that I'm much better off with positive re-inforcement eg praise and treats and play. So even if I fail to make the connection I want in my dog's head, there is no unpleasant fall out. Eg where Spuddy describes their dog being terrified of yank-and-crank instructor in another thread.

    http://www.dogforum.com.au/puppy-dis...so-snappy.html
    S: Yes I agree, but in that thread you have linked, this seems like pure abuse, I think you have seen my style of physical correction H and you know it is nothing like that.

    It didn't take much of a search for "fallout positive punishment" to turn up a whole book on the subject "Coercian and it's fallout" - Murray Sidmam

    If you think about it, if positive punishment worked - nobody would speed in their cars after getting a speeding fine.
    S: I think you will find that the lack of consistency is the blame for failure in that training program
    Steve Courtney, K9 Pro - The K9 Professionals

    www.k9pro.com.au

    Official Forum Trainer and Behaviourist

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