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Thread: Prong Collars, Why?

  1. #351
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    With the e- collar I also think it depends on the dog and the trainer and as the study concludes for that type of training and probably with dogs that had already passed all the selection tests regards to temperament.

    I had a phone from my neighbour who also trains working dogs as trialing dogs. He has a very timid kelpie who is a good worker but can be difficult due to his nature. I have observed them working together and my thoughts were he was too impatient and hard on the dog and was pushing him too fast. My neighbour was having trouble with his stops and decide to use an e- collar as some people do, hoping to get quick results.

    Well after that the dog flatly refused to work for him so he was aking if I would take the dog on as he though he might respond better to my methods, or he was going to have to shoot it. I have 2 other working rejects I am training and didnt have the time. Fortunately I knew someone just looking for a working dog and wasnt interested in trialing - much better set up for this dog.

  2. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalacreek View Post
    Yes I agree that her reaction is a stress reaction but the results are much better than correcting her.
    S: See and that is the funny thing about this thread, most people will argue the prong collar because they feel it puts undue stress / pressure on the dog and they will say that removal or reward doesn't.

    But as you can see in your dog, it does, and in some dogs it puts a lot more stress than corrections.

    I am concluding correction is more stresssful for her as she shuts down and wont work full stop whearas witholding a reward occasionally, she really gets her butt into gear and tries harder.
    S: Well of course I haven't seen your dog/s but I would add, corrections are to stop unwanted behaviors or at least the likeliness of re occurrence of those behaviors, not for teaching.

    Teaching, reinforcing, conditioning and motivating is best done through positive experience where possible.
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  3. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by k9force View Post
    S: I am not suggesting that people with no time are doing the right thing by their dogs, I am simply stating that is the way things are commonly, and whether I like it, agree with it or condone it doesn't enter the picture really, it is one of the parameters I need to consider when helping people wit their dogs.

    S: I think there is a lot of different categories from the ones that you state to people who underestimate the time that it takes to train a dog to people that find themselves with a real problem dog and cant get out of the problem without help but are committed.
    If the person is finding help for a problem dog then they are obviously committed and I dont have a problem with that. If you make the effort to fix something then that is good. I found myself in a similar position with a problem dog, looking for a good trainer to help me, which is what got me so interested in dog training. That dog was incredibly hard work. The trainer was a total godsend. Mind you it took me several trainers to find the right one.

    I had people coming to the obedience club where I instructed with similar problems, often from rescue dogs and they were amazing the amount of time they put in to fix things.

    It is the people that buy dogs without any research or thought to the future and ditch them when they realise how much work is actually involved or when circumstances that they knew full well could arise happen, that I have a problem with.

  4. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalacreek View Post
    With the e- collar I also think it depends on the dog and the trainer and as the study concludes for that type of training and probably with dogs that had already passed all the selection tests regards to temperament.
    S: I think with any training tool it mostly depends on the trainer and the dog.

    I had a phone from my neighbour who also trains working dogs as trialing dogs. He has a very timid kelpie who is a good worker but can be difficult due to his nature. I have observed them working together and my thoughts were he was too impatient and hard on the dog and was pushing him too fast. My neighbour was having trouble with his stops and decide to use an e- collar as some people do, hoping to get quick results.

    Well after that the dog flatly refused to work for him
    S: which means he misused the collar. This happens when people use higher levels, don't do any foundation work or have very bad timing.

    If you swap the e collar for a clicker, the sentence still applies.

    so he was aking if I would take the dog on as he though he might respond better to my methods, or he was going to have to shoot it. I have 2 other working rejects I am training and didnt have the time. Fortunately I knew someone just looking for a working dog and wasnt interested in trialing - much better set up for this dog.
    S: Ok and whilst it may be, this is just like the example you gave earlier? The guy gave up on the dog? Nothing was fixed? No one was taught?
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  5. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by k9force View Post
    S: Well of course I haven't seen your dog/s but I would add, corrections are to stop unwanted behaviors or at least the likeliness of re occurrence of those behaviors, not for teaching.

    Teaching, reinforcing, conditioning and motivating is best done through positive experience where possible.

    I agree but it is not how most people use corrections - they use it for teaching quite often. Dog doesnt sit so they wack it, or it wont heel so they jerk it in to posistion but does the dog know how to sit or heel in the first place?

    I just find if you teach and reinforce what you want, step by step, corrections are rarely neccessary, especially physical ones.

    It may well differ for other dogs, my only experience is with very intelligent mainly working bred herding dogs.

  6. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalacreek View Post
    If the person is finding help for a problem dog then they are obviously committed and I dont have a problem with that. If you make the effort to fix something then that is good. I found myself in a similar position with a problem dog, looking for a good trainer to help me, which is what got me so interested in dog training. That dog was incredibly hard work. The trainer was a total godsend. Mind you it took me several trainers to find the right one.
    S: And i guess this is like a family Dr or anyone you work personally with, it can take time to find the one that fits, and this might not be much to do with the way they conduct the service as much as how you interact with them.

    I had people coming to the obedience club where I instructed with similar problems, often from rescue dogs and they were amazing the amount of time they put in to fix things.
    S: It is really an admirable quality in a person that see's them invest in a dog to help it through a touch time when they got the dog with a whole different idea in mind.

    Every day I get updates from people who amaze me with commitment to their dog and get results.

    It is the people that buy dogs without any research or thought to the future and ditch them when they realise how much work is actually involved or when circumstances that they knew full well could arise happen, that I have a problem with.
    S: Of course I have met a number of those too, I guess they have their reasons but sometimes I see so much potential in the dog, it is sad.

    LOL and I have ended up with a few too lol...
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  7. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalacreek View Post
    I agree but it is not how most people use corrections - they use it for teaching quite often. Dog doesnt sit so they wack it, or it wont heel so they jerk it in to posistion but does the dog know how to sit or heel in the first place?
    S: And we know it is wrong, but it is like I said, abuse is in the user not the tool.

    Bad method is bad method regardless of how you conduct it.

    I just find if you teach and reinforce what you want, step by step, corrections are rarely neccessary, especially physical ones.

    It may well differ for other dogs, my only experience is with very intelligent mainly working bred herding dogs.
    S: I agree but would add that, if a dog had learned undesirable habits then corrections can sometimes be the only way to slow some of those down, but balance means we need to give the dog another outlet for the drive it was displaying when behaving poorly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by k9force View Post
    S: Ok and whilst it may be, this is just like the example you gave earlier? The guy gave up on the dog? Nothing was fixed? No one was taught?
    Exactly, but the dog wasnt shot and he went to a home where he could work with out added pressure of being perfect for trialing. I am the type that will persist, but then working and training my dogs is more important to me than winning an open trial.

    I just think people rely too often on what they believe are quick fix options without taking the time to learn the theory and the use of them.
    That is my personal beief. I seem to have always found a solution for my dogs with out the need for physical corrections. I am not saying appropriate use of these tools are wrong, I am saying that people are too quick to look for quick fix solutions with no regard to how to use them or the temperament of the dog or understanding anything about how dogs learn. They have no concept of foundation work.

  9. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalacreek View Post
    Exactly, but the dog wasnt shot and he went to a home where he could work with out added pressure of being perfect for trialing. I am the type that will persist, but then working and training my dogs is more important to me than winning an open trial.
    S: I guess it is horses for courses too, some people who trial see no use a Agility for example, some people do both.

    I just think people rely too often on what they believe are quick fix options without taking the time to learn the theory and the use of them.
    That is my personal beief. I seem to have always found a solution for my dogs with out the need for physical corrections. I am not saying appropriate use of these tools are wrong, I am saying that people are too quick to look for quick fix solutions with no regard to how to use them or the temperament of the dog or understanding anything about how dogs learn. They have no concept of foundation work.
    S: Yes I include a lot of explanation of dog behavior in private consults, trying to get the message across how the dog thinks and acts so that this will hopefully give people a better, deeper understanding and give them the best chances.
    Steve Courtney, K9 Pro - The K9 Professionals

    www.k9pro.com.au

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  10. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by k9force View Post
    S: I guess it is horses for courses too, some people who trial see no use a Agility for example, some people do both.
    The owner of the kelpie has no need for a sheep dog in a farm setting. He wants to win 3 sheep trials. Not all dogs are suited to 3 sheep trialing but they could make much better working farm dogs. I am not sure my young strong hot headed BC is going to be a good 3 sheep dog but he moves mobs of 200 like a pro LOL. Moving 3 sheep through obstacles on a course, we will see as he matures! no hurry, just setting the foundations.

    I just hate it when people will shoot the dog that doesnt quickly work out for them, perhaps even because of their own training methods! I could never in a thousand years do that even if it means I never have a top dog.

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