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Thread: Prong Collars, Why?

  1. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedra View Post
    No, of course I don't associate words Positive Punishment with glowing lights and sparkles That's why I'm saying - combining pos. punisment with positive reinforcement is no longer positive method of training.
    S: It never was and no one was saying it is or was, V&F simply said that the method she used included Positive Reinforcement, no more nor no less, and it does.

    Dogs are smart and yes, they do get it eventully, but it is confusing and it is not positive experience.
    S: whether is is a positive or negative experience depends on the balance the trainer uses, perhaps you have seen trainers use more negative than positive? well it doesn't need to be that way.

    There is no such training as purely positive, all training contains something that puts the dog under some stress or pressure, or learning would not take place with any accuracy. Some people like to portray they use nothing that would apply any pressure to the dog, they are simply not being honest or worse perhaps, they don't know.
    Steve Courtney, K9 Pro - The K9 Professionals

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  2. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedra View Post
    No, of course I don't associate words Positive Punishment with glowing lights and sparkles That's why I'm saying - combining pos. punisment with positive reinforcement is no longer positive method of training. Dogs are smart and yes, they do get it eventully, but it is confusing and it is not positive experience.
    Fedra: I'm just curious- is it the prong collar or the use of positive punishment and/or negative reinforcement that you object to? Or maybe both? I ask, because the two could potentially be quite separate....

    Steve (Yoda): can you do 'interview with the dog' like Boyd H does?... I find it quite educational ( and, yes, funny, I admit it!! ). Makes seeing things from the Dog's perspective easier.

    Should have called myself 'Grasshopper', lol

  3. #333
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    Some years ago I worked with a very fear aggressive ACD. I tried a number of things including various collars, citronella etc but her fear was so deeply rooted that I found what really worked and had lasting effect was a desensitising and counter conditioning approach. I also taught her advanced obedience in a flat collar with only the use of treats and praise. Any form of physical correction simply did not work on her as several trainers discovered.

    The end result was a dog that walked on a loose lead in a perfect heel, acknowledged stranger people and dogs with a quick glance and then put her full attenion on to me. We even did out of sight sit stays in obedience at my club.

    This was from a lunging, chasing, nipping, screeching maniac.

    I had never heard of this type of training before. I used no physical correction what so ever, but I worked really hard and broke things down into tiny chunks and always worked below threshold and reinforced with accurate timing the behaviour I wanted. The desensitisation part was associate strangers with good things and rewire her brain. I had a wonderful trainer help me with all this and she was amazing, read my dog like a book.


    Today with my working dogs I have found patience, using my body and the dogs natural instincts, breaking the components down, showing the dog what I want and reinforcing a good response with allowing the dog to continue working and praise using a soft voice tone, much better than shouting, physical correction, much more successfull.

    Same with one of my non working dogs that would sheep relentlessly given the opportunity. Beating her didnt help, she was oblivious. I just spent a lot of time reinforcing her recall with a high value treat and now she comes instantly treat or not. In fact she will stay by me even up close to them these days.

    In terms of the barking cavaliers and the e collar. I can see that that worked well in that situation. What I dont like is when people use the training aids in lieu of training. I know someone who has a GSD and she always has her dog in an e- collar because she was too lazy to train it. It just gets zapped if it does something wrong.

    The more I observe body language, reinforce, split things up, set up for success the less I seem to have to correct.
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 12-08-2010 at 10:08 PM.

  4. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalacreek View Post
    In terms of the barking cavaliers and the e collar. I can see that that worked well in that situation. What I dont like is when people use the training aids in lieu of training. I know someone who has a GSD and she always has her dog in an e- collar because she was too lazy to train it. It just gets zapped if it does something wrong.

    The more I observe body language, reinforce, split things up, set up for success the less I seem to have to correct.
    Amen to that. I'm only advocating knowledgeably selected methods dependent on the dog, the circumstances and what the owner is capable of either with the support of a trainer or alone.

    As Steve said, you select training aides, but without good method, the aides can be crap. Or in the wrong hands. Or under the wrong conditions, ditto.

    I guess I have to go back to what I said previously: having an open mind is essential for everyone's success.

  5. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by Villain & Flirtt View Post
    Fedra: I'm just curious- is it the prong collar or the use of positive punishment and/or negative reinforcement that you object to? Or maybe both? I ask, because the two could potentially be quite separate....
    I strongly object to the use of prong collars, choke chains, e-collars and other aversive means. Yes I do. I do however understand that it is necessary to sometimes use positive punishment, but sparingly and only in certain circumstances. Also, I much more prefer negative punishment if I have to "punish". It works great. I just refuse to believe that 10 000 or more dogs trained by one trainer needed prong collars because nothing else worked. I never use them.
    Respect and you shall be respected. Animal is always right.

  6. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalacreek View Post
    Some years ago I worked with a very fear aggressive ACD. I tried a number of things including various collars, citronella etc but her fear was so deeply rooted that I found what really worked and had lasting effect was a desensitizing and counter conditioning approach.
    S: Yes I 100% agree with you there, fear aggression cant be corrected or punished out, but that isnt the purpose of the prong collar.

    I also taught her advanced obedience in a flat collar with only the use of treats and praise. Any form of physical correction simply did not work on her as several trainers discovered.

    The end result was a dog that walked on a loose lead in a perfect heel, acknowledged stranger people and dogs with a quick glance and then put her full attenion on to me. We even did out of sight sit stays in obedience at my club.
    S: Some may not know this but my my preferred method of training is training in drive, my method does not include any corrections at all and we have some very high competition winners.

    This was from a lunging, chasing, nipping, screeching maniac.

    I had never heard of this type of training before. I used no physical correction what so ever, but I worked really hard and broke things down into tiny chunks and always worked below threshold and reinforced with accurate timing the behaviour I wanted. The desensitisation part was associate strangers with good things and rewire her brain. I had a wonderful trainer help me with all this and she was amazing, read my dog like a book.
    S: Yes as I said agree with you 100%, but with some dogs working below the threshold is not possible without some level of control being trained, some dogs brought to me will react at the scent of a dog, so there is no working below the thresholds unless we start in the desert.


    Today with my working dogs I have found patience, using my body and the dogs natural instincts, breaking the components down, showing the dog what I want and reinforcing a good response with allowing the dog to continue working and praise using a soft voice tone, much better than shouting, physical correction, much more successfull.
    S: Agree again, with some dogs.

    Same with one of my non working dogs that would sheep relentlessly given the opportunity. Beating her didnt help, she was oblivious. I just spent a lot of time reinforcing her recall with a high value treat and now she comes instantly treat or not. In fact she will stay by me even up close to them these days.

    In terms of the barking cavaliers and the e collar. I can see that that worked well in that situation. What I dont like is when people use the training aids in lieu of training.
    S: Some people are faced with a council order, they dont work from home and when they are out, the dog barks all day and puts both itself and the owner at risk. Whilst it is true that many people simply dont put in the time, some simply dont have it.

    I know someone who has a GSD and she always has her dog in an e- collar because she was too lazy to train it. It just gets zapped if it does something wrong.

    The more I observe body language, reinforce, split things up, set up for success the less I seem to have to correct.
    S: And until people develop these skills they have dogs that are out of control.
    Steve Courtney, K9 Pro - The K9 Professionals

    www.k9pro.com.au

    Official Forum Trainer and Behaviourist

  7. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedra View Post
    I strongly object to the use of prong collars, choke chains, e-collars and other aversive means. Yes I do. I do however understand that it is necessary to sometimes use positive punishment, but sparingly and only in certain circumstances.
    S: I dont disagree with the use being sparingly or only in certain circumstances

    Also, I much more prefer negative punishment if I have to "punish".
    S: Ok but what do you think the dog prefers?

    It works great.
    S: why does it? I am not saying it doesnt, just asking why would the dog change a behaviour after being exposed to negative punishment?

    Can you give us an description of how you would use negative punishment?

    I just refuse to believe that 10 000 or more dogs trained by one trainer needed prong collars because nothing else worked. I never use them.
    S: Sorry I think you have miss read the answer I gave and were arguing a different point. Hope I can clarify...

    It was said that

    V&F Prong collar? Yep. Remote trainer? Yep. Flat collar? Yep. Treats? Yep. Positive reinforcement? Yep. Social understaning of acceptable beahaviour? Yep. Consequences for unacceptable behaviour? Yep. Happy owner? Yep. Happy dogs? YEP!
    and you replied

    F: Except you can not use term positive reinforcement while using what you mentioned above and that is negative reinforcers. These two just can't go hand in hand together even though people might think they do. There is nothing positive in punishing and awarding and it makes no sense to a dog.
    S: I explained that postitive reinforcement can be applied when the dog returns to the owner, it really doesnt matter what happened before to a degree.

    I think that you may think that V&F were suggesting the whole training exercise was just positive reinforcement when in fact I think she was saying that she was able to include +R with these tools.

    I went on to explain that I have demonstrated this technique to must be 10 000 owners and their dogs.

    You replied with

    F: I just refuse to believe that 10 000 or more dogs trained by one trainer needed prong collars because nothing else worked.
    S: First I never said that I used prong collars on all 10 000 dogs. A prong collar is a tool not a technique, I was describing the action of adding positive reinforcement after a correction. This could include prong collars through to removing a reward.

    What I am discussing here and explaining was how positive reinforcement can be applied to a dog after a correction, and that dogs do learn from it and do understand it.

    Going back to Prong collars, they are a means to an end, they give people who are perhaps at the threshold of giving up, a lifeline which often keeps the dog alive.

    Should people put in more time, learn more skill, educate themselves on dog matters? yes, but I guess we all should eat better, sleep more, exercise more, be nicer to each other too. The road to hell is paved with good intentions...
    Steve Courtney, K9 Pro - The K9 Professionals

    www.k9pro.com.au

    Official Forum Trainer and Behaviourist

  8. #338
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    The dog prefers sleeping on the couch.

    Sorry - I couldn't help it.

    I think my dog would prefer treat withheld (negative punishment?) to a pop with a correction collar (positive punishment).

    Though what I usually do at the moment is stop walking and call the dog back to me if she starts to pull/get to the end of the lead. Ideally I would like to get her to walk next to me but I still haven't decided whether I want to insist on that or if sniffing as we go (whose walk is it anyway?) is ok. Trouble with dog is - one must make a decision and use black and white criteria not the "sometimes" criteria that most of us use.

    I'm currently using flat collar only, but occasionally put front attach harness on and if I want to stop the sniffing and possum poo grazing - I will have to go back to the head halter which she HATES. And I don't like it because she hates it. Then again she could earn the right to keep it off by leaving the possum poo and bbq at the park leftovers alone.

  9. #339
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    i used a prong collar ONCE to break scottie out of a HORRIBLE jumping habit, that was because i tried everything

  10. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by k9force View Post
    S: Some people are faced with a council order, they dont work from home and when they are out, the dog barks all day and puts both itself and the owner at risk. Whilst it is true that many people simply dont put in the time, some simply dont have it.

    Why the heck would you get a dog if you dont have time? I have worked very long hours and had a dog. Up at 5am rain hail or shine or walking till midnight if I had to. Not rocket science - either find the time or wait till the time is right to have a dog.

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