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Thread: Prong Collars, Why?

  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedra View Post
    Hysteria? No. Just personal experience and my life long experience with dogs. What you achieve with prong collars and check chains is simply learned helplessness.
    K9: Until you made this comment, you had some reasonable things to say that gave me the impression you may have been somewhat knowledgable. Learned helplessness is a dog in total shut down, in most cases they wont do anything including move...

    If you're happy with a dog like that, that's fine, as you say, "each to their own". I'm not fine with such dog. I am fine with a dog that trusts me and does things because I've earned its trust, not because I made it do something by force.
    K9: Dogs that work on trust alone are few and far between, dogs do what works for them, if they dont want your trust as they have low pack drive, they will do nothing for you.

    Same goes for horses. So, just a tool or not - I don't like it, but as I said, unfortunately in some extreme cases where I have no other option left (because dog is so effed up) I would use it.
    K9: When the dog was so effed up, why didnt you just build trust? Instead you resort to a prong collar and created learned helplessness? (your words not mine).

    Making another creature do whatever you want to do because it's a whim or for your pleasure or whatever it's just not on for me.
    K9: That would make you against all training....

    And now you may argue that dogs MUST do this or that because they need to have manners. Yes, you're right, they must, but it can be done without "tools". I've seen it, I've done it, there are many admirable trainers around the World who do it, so it's really just a choice each person makes when dog enters their lives. I made mine looooong time ago.
    K9: It really seems Fedra that you will bag prong collars and their users, until you deem the dog is screwed up enough for you to use one? Gee how did you become the only person in the world qualified to make these calls...

    You said: -

    • Dogs attain a learned helplessness state with a prong collar.
    • You train dogs with trust.
    • You use a prong collar when the dog is so effed up, there are no other options.


    So I take from this, you will train using trust until it doesnt work, then use something else.

    You think that dogs suffer from learned helplessness on a prong collar, but essentially that isnt a concern if you cant get what you want out of a dog...

    You say that making a dog do something at a whim is not for you, but you tell us about the dogs you have trained? Why did you train them? to get them to do something? at a whim?
    Steve Courtney, K9 Pro - The K9 Professionals

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  2. #302
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    [QUOTE=k9force;104942]Learned helplessness is a dog in total shut down, in most cases they wont do anything including move...

    Hahahaha yeah right! No, you're dead wrong.


    Dogs that work on trust alone are few and far between, dogs do what works for them, if they dont want your trust as they have low pack drive, they will do nothing for you.
    Low pack drive???


    K9: When the dog was so effed up, why didnt you just build trust? Instead you resort to a prong collar and created learned helplessness? (your words not mine).
    Yes those are my words. Because that particular dog was VERY agro and we needed to get him out from the previous owner. Long story. We didn't work with prong collar with this dog in a future, but it took a long long time til he recovered and became "normal" again. He was happily adopted.


    K9: That would make you against all training....
    Against certain methods of training.


    K9: It really seems Fedra that you will bag prong collars and their users, until you deem the dog is screwed up enough for you to use one? Gee how did you become the only person in the world qualified to make these calls...
    Gee you're full of you know what.

    You said: -

    • Dogs attain a learned helplessness state with a prong collar.
    • You train dogs with trust.
    • You use a prong collar when the dog is so effed up, there are no other options.


    So I take from this, you will train using trust until it doesnt work, then use something else.

    You think that dogs suffer from learned helplessness on a prong collar, but essentially that isnt a concern if you cant get what you want out of a dog...

    You say that making a dog do something at a whim is not for you, but you tell us about the dogs you have trained? Why did you train them? to get them to do something? at a whim?
    yadda yadda yadda.... as I already said before, no point talking to you. bye.
    Respect and you shall be respected. Animal is always right.

  3. #303
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    [QUOTE][QUOTE=Fedra;104979]
    Quote Originally Posted by k9force View Post
    Learned helplessness is a dog in total shut down, in most cases they wont do anything including move...

    Hahahaha yeah right! No, you're dead wrong.
    K9: you better go do some research I think, Leared Helplessness is a term in animal psychology describing a condition an animal can become affected by when placed in a no win situation.

    This can be (and has been) achieved by simply securing a dog in a simple harness for an extended period of time, until the dog believes that this situation will be perpetual and even when the harness removed, the dog will remain stoic.

    Animal Psychologist Martin Seligman condicted a number of experiments about 40 years ago to prove this theroy and believed it can lead to clinical depression.

    It does not require pain or discomfort to be applied to create this condition, it is a condition of the mind. I have seen many dogs that have been over corrected by many means affected by this condition, trainers often refer to them as Mine Field dogs, too scared to make any move in case they step on a mine...

    It is not linked to any specific tool but a set of conditions set upon an animal over a period of time.

    Dogs that simply dont pull on the leash because they have been trained not to arent in Learned Helplessness lol...


    Yes those are my words. Because that particular dog was VERY agro and we needed to get him out from the previous owner. Long story. We didn't work with prong collar with this dog in a future, but it took a long long time til he recovered and became "normal" again. He was happily adopted.
    K9: So, he was aggressive and you thought the best way to treat him was through physical correction? Interesting...

    Did this dog end up suffering Learned Helplessness?



    Against certain methods of training.

    Gee you're full of you know what.
    K9: Nice way to debate a topic, I guess it shows where your knowledge lays, or doesnt.

    yadda yadda yadda.... as I already said before, no point talking to you. bye.
    K9: sure, no worries... Thanks for sharing your wisdom with us... lol
    Steve Courtney, K9 Pro - The K9 Professionals

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  4. #304
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    K9: you better go do some research I think, Leared Helplessness is a term in animal psychology describing a condition an animal can become affected by when placed in a no win situation.
    Animal psychology and behaviour (dogs in particular) actually is one of my main interests.


    Animal Psychologist Martin Seligman condicted a number of experiments about 40 years ago to prove this theroy and believed it can lead to clinical depression.
    Yes I know who he is. Experiments are one thing real life another.


    Dogs that simply dont pull on the leash because they have been trained not to arent in Learned Helplessness lol...
    I never said that they are But then again, depending how did they learn not to pull. To me, training using "force" is any method that requires you to physically manipulate the dog/animal into position or action. It doesn't allow the dog to learn how to do it on his own, to think for himself. Dogs learn much more quickly when they are rewarded for doing things themselves, rather than being physically put into the position. Too much training where the dog is always physically manipulated can teach a dog learned helplessness and to become dependent on having to be touched or have their collar pulled in order to do something as simple as lying down or walking next to you (heeling). Also, with horses, manipulating a horse to do what is not natural for them to do - carying a rider - is also learned helplessness, no matter how "gently" it's done.

    Quote Originally Posted by k9force View Post
    K9: So, he was aggressive and you thought the best way to treat him was through physical correction? Interesting...

    Did this dog end up suffering Learned Helplessness?
    No you are just refusing to read what I am trying to point out, we had to restrain the dog because there was no way we could handle him and there was no vet around to sedate the poor beast. It was a 55-60 kilos VERY AGGRESSIVE dog. Go figure! There was no training, nor "correcting". And no, it wasn't a pretty sight either.

    K9: Nice way to debate a topic, I guess it shows where your knowledge lays, or doesnt.

    K9: sure, no worries... Thanks for sharing your wisdom with us... lol
    You welcome!

    And of course, as a person who's web site is filled with "nice tools" for training that reach up to 300 dollars or more, it is perfectly clear why you are so eager to defend such methods.

    kissie-kissie

    http://www.dogtrainingbypj.com/Resou...OrECollars.pdf
    Last edited by Fedra; 07-06-2010 at 07:59 PM.
    Respect and you shall be respected. Animal is always right.

  5. #305
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    well my 2 cents.
    prong collars if used right can be a good tool, but used wrong can be very dangours.

    But personally i would never use one.
    i believe that you should be a team with your dog, life is about finding a balance, friend in fear isn't a friend at all.

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevenw View Post
    i believe that you should be a team with your dog, life is about finding a balance, friend in fear isn't a friend at all.
    Thank you! This is exactly what I'M talking about.
    Respect and you shall be respected. Animal is always right.

  7. #307

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    This topic has been going for a while it would seem, I've just come accross it now...

    I have trained quite a few dogs for obedience titles... and over the years training methods have changed so much... however one thing still remains the same, every dog is individual and needs individual training and equipment... I've met some dogs over the years that feel no pain at all and any amount of correction would have no effect at all... and others who with the tiniest pull on the collar will go into hysterics... Some dogs are big and strong and need to be controlled... I have no problem with them being controlled with a prong collar if it is done correctly...(as with all training aids) .. I would much rather a dog be undercontrol with a prong than out of control with a nylon flat collar.. the correct training equipment makes training easier for the dog, they will learn quickly, one correction on a prong can teach a dog a lesson that many months with other chains cannot...

    I had a red stafford boy who every single time the front door was opened by anyone walking in or out he would escape and bolt down the road, I was so worried he was going to be injured... I tried every method I could think of and some new ones... out of desperation a friend lent me a prong collar, we put it on.. and the dog corrected himself I asked him stay and he didn't... he never ever went out the door again without being asked...

    My boy Dooee would never be able to handle the prong collar, he's way to soft, I only have to raise my voice and he will fall into place...

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedra View Post
    Animal psychology and behaviour (dogs in particular) actually is one of my main interests.

    Yes I know who he is. Experiments are one thing real life another.
    K9: well perhaps you can regail us with your experiments...

    I never said that they are But then again, depending how did they learn not to pull. To me, training using "force" is any method that requires you to physically manipulate the dog/animal into position or action. It doesn't allow the dog to learn how to do it on his own, to think for himself. Dogs learn much more quickly when they are rewarded for doing things themselves, rather than being physically put into the position.
    K9: why do dogs learn better with reward? Perhaps you can tell me this... Can dogs suffer from learned helplessness when using rewards?

    Too much training where the dog is always physically manipulated can teach a dog learned helplessness and to become dependent on having to be touched or have their collar pulled in order to do something as simple as lying down or walking next to you (heeling).
    K9: Too much of anything is not good, too many teats for example arent good either...

    No you are just refusing to read what I am trying to point out, we had to restrain the dog because there was no way we could handle him and there was no vet around to sedate the poor beast. It was a 55-60 kilos VERY AGGRESSIVE dog. Go figure! There was no training, nor "correcting". And no, it wasn't a pretty sight either.
    K9: ok, so you used a prong collar for restraint?

    If you take a look at the training articles and testimonials on my website, you can see how training is done, nothing is hidden, not my name, not my methods or tools, it is all 100% transperant, but when I try and get any small detail about this dog from you, its all smoke and mirrors?

    And of course, as a person who's web site is filled with "nice tools" for training that reach up to 300 dollars or more, it is perfectly clear why you are so eager to defend such methods.
    K9: Typical slanted rubbish, my web site has more tools for motivation than anything else. Go away with your propaganda...

    [/QUOTE]

    K9: No need to go all over the world for articles written by someone you dont know, here are some:

    One

    Two

    Three

    Four

    Testimonials from my site

    one on prong collar

    Two

    Three

    I can go on...

    Lets talk about this dog that was so aggressive, you had to use a prong collar.

    tell us why you chose the collar and how you used it...
    Last edited by k9force; 07-06-2010 at 10:19 PM.
    Steve Courtney, K9 Pro - The K9 Professionals

    www.k9pro.com.au

    Official Forum Trainer and Behaviourist

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by k9force View Post
    Too much of anything is not good, too many teats for example arent good either...
    right. i can't imagine myself with more than two.


    Lets talk about ....
    Let's not talk any more as it leads to absolutely nothing. You have your methods, happy clients, and happy dogs I hope and I have mine. I don't appreciate some of your methods, and you do not have to do the same for mine. Good luck.
    Respect and you shall be respected. Animal is always right.

  10. #310
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    K9: Yep thought as much, not willing to share anything at all, just stand back and pick away at others...

    And for the record, I dont know what your methods are? You wont give us any details lol... It all seems to be a secret...
    Last edited by k9force; 07-07-2010 at 08:58 AM.
    Steve Courtney, K9 Pro - The K9 Professionals

    www.k9pro.com.au

    Official Forum Trainer and Behaviourist

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