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Thread: Prong Collars, Why?

  1. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedra View Post
    I see no point in arguing with you K9 any longer
    K9: You were arguing? I was simply stating facts.

    I'll just laugh this one off as you have no idea what kind of horse and dogs I've worked with without using "tools". I just don't believe that it is possible that each and every one of dogs I've worked with was easily trained and behaved desirably.
    K9: Interesting you think I was directing this at you... When I say people I am referring to many, not one. But I guess if the shoe fits, you had to try it on first to know...
    Steve Courtney, K9 Pro - The K9 Professionals

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  2. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by k9force View Post
    K9: You were arguing? I was simply stating facts.
    I think I posted enough facts.


    K9: Interesting you think I was directing this at you... When I say people I am referring to many, not one. But I guess if the shoe fits, you had to try it on first to know...
    Don't be such a child. I was refering to: "it is very easy to sit on a high horse when you have a dog that is easy to train and is behaving desirably"
    So sorry if i got you wrong.

    After all, as I said - do or use whatever you like if you feel comfy. It is your right after all, isn't it. I only wanted to say that I don't like those methods/tools, I'm not happy to use them when I work with dogs, and I don't think they're good. It's only my opinion.
    Respect and you shall be respected. Animal is always right.

  3. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by k9force View Post
    A person comes to see me with their dog, they have been to several trainers all who say put the dog down, owner has tried for two years to gain the dogs trust and the dog is extremely fear aggressive towards other dogs.

    They have tried everything they could find and the common answer was euthanise the dog, the lady got the dog as an adult, with possible abusive history and her best advice was that the dog as never socialised and hence is fearful of other dogs and would always be this way.

    This fear developed into moderate dog aggression and finally full blown fear aggression in which the dog would attack.

    They come for a consult, the dog has little to no leash manners, the person is inexperienced but really looking for help but at the same time, have really come to the conclusion the dog cant be rehabilitated and that just one more specialist telling her the same thing would be dutiful enough of the owner to circum to euthanising her large breed dog.

    Assessment tells you that, without any leash control of this dog, it could be quite a danger to the public and other dogs, do you spend 2 months or even 2 weeks focussing on soley trying to train a (near defeated ) owner to train a pulling, lunging, large aggressive dog whilst risking public and dog?
    K9, with all due respect, have you read all my posts? Have you read the one in which I wrote that I had used prong collar in such extreme situation, and where I said if I was faced with it again that I'd probably use it again?

    I'm talking EXTREME SITUATION, with extremely aggressive and large pooch. What I am against is the fact that people decide to use certain tools when they think they can't handle as much as dog just pulling on leash. People like quick fixes and can't be bothered looking deeper into a certain problem that is usually fixable without harsh methods or tools. I see it every day mate, so please understand what I'm trying to say.
    Respect and you shall be respected. Animal is always right.

  4. #294
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    [QUOTE=Fedra;104343]I think I posted enough facts. [/quote}

    K9: I think enough facts is when everyone is satisfied, not just you.

    Don't be such a child.
    K9: wow name calling now... you can always tell where someone is placed in an argument when they resort to name calling.

    Perhaps it is a good idea that you stay away from prong collars and other tools that could cause harm in the wrong hands, if you cant hold your temper...


    After all, as I said - do or use whatever you like if you feel comfy. It is your right after all, isn't it. I only wanted to say that I don't like those methods/tools, I'm not happy to use them when I work with dogs, and I don't think they're good. It's only my opinion.
    K9: were all entitled to our opinions, but it seems to go a lot further than that...
    Steve Courtney, K9 Pro - The K9 Professionals

    www.k9pro.com.au

    Official Forum Trainer and Behaviourist

  5. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedra View Post
    K9, with all due respect, have you read all my posts? Have you read the one in which I wrote that I had used prong collar in such extreme situation, and where I said if I was faced with it again that I'd probably use it again?
    K9: yes, what makes you think every post I write is to you only? this is a public forum, when I quote you, I am addressing you or your post.

    It was a rhetorical question for all to consider if they would cross the lines they draw so easily...

    I'm talking EXTREME SITUATION, with extremely aggressive and large pooch.
    K9: Ok but I didnt call this dog extreme, I see a number of these every week! I guess I am desenstized...

    What I am against is the fact that people decide to use certain tools when they think they can't handle as much as dog just pulling on leash.
    K9: A person that believes something quite often isnt able to believe something else. Once defeated they need one ingredientm hope. Without hope they are hopeless and they will condemn the dog... Are they wrong, sure, but who pays...

    People like quick fixes
    K9: Yes they do, like euthanising dogs...

    and can't be bothered looking deeper into a certain problem that is usually fixable without harsh methods or tools.
    K9: ever met someone you just couldnt teach? if not you will, what is the answer for them?

    I see it every day mate, so please understand what I'm trying to say.
    K9: I do too, but when you say harsh methods or tools, and you seem well educated on these facts, would you consider witholding a ball from a dog an aversive, if so, which would be a worse aversive?

    1. A high level correction from a prong collar

    or

    2. Offering a dog a ball for a sit and then not giving it?
    Steve Courtney, K9 Pro - The K9 Professionals

    www.k9pro.com.au

    Official Forum Trainer and Behaviourist

  6. #296
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    IF you did not hand over that ball, when you offerred it, Bernie would scream and scream, like only a GSD in high drive can. He'd beg for a zap on a electric collar if it meant a BALL!

  7. #297
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    IF you did not hand over that ball, when you offerred it, Bernie would scream and scream, like only a GSD in high drive can. He'd beg for a zap on a electric collar, or a yank on a prong collar, if it meant a BALL!
    Im pretty confident, id answer for my dog, that not giving the ball is the greater aversive.

    Ive not used a prong. Ive handled one. Ive tried it on and tugged. They dont hurt. They squeeze.

    MY issue with prong collars, electric collars are, the only qualification you need to own and operate one, is a credit card.

  8. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimi1 View Post
    "Dogs and wolves use force in the wild, they respond to it."
    Liza, this doesn't make sense. When was the time when the dogs were wolves? Things have changed since. Do you still have the instinct to hunt and kill for your food? This is what prehistoric man did!
    All dogs still posses that instinct, if you think they do not you are very ,very wrong, dogs basic natures have not changed and never will

  9. #299

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    Quote Originally Posted by laura77 View Post
    any tool used incorrectly can do damage thats completley correct.

    thats why you cannot drive a car until you have a licence.
    operate other equipment without training.

    but think about it..how many slip chains and prong collars are being used by people who have recieved not one bit of advice??

    probably more people than those who have recieved training.....

    And your point is?If it were as bad as some people say there should be dogs lining up at the vet with horrific injuries from "untrained" users BUT there isnt.Why?

    IMO i think they should be banned, if not to get rid of, untrained users. but because if you work at it instead of using a quick fix (such as a prong collar), you can get you dog walking nicely without it having to be constantly pinched. we have people here saying they have seen the collars draw blood. we have avocates for the collar say that it only pinches..

    If your dog is walking nicely it isnt getting pinched continuosly.There is no need for a pinch collar then .The dog is trained to walk properly on a pinch collar ..it doesnt need it after its not an ongoing thing.

    either way i would not like my dog to be cut OR pinched on the neck...i would'nt pinch my dog if she misbehaved inside so why would i pinch her if she misbehaved on a walk?
    If these things are so barbaric as some suggest and cause a dog so much pain and grief you would think that a dog wouldnt want to wear one? It would shy away from you if you held it to put it on him?You know what ... they dont...There even isnt the initial discomfort and anxiety as there is (and ive seen it) when putting on the halti type devices.
    You have all seen dogs that have been mistreated ones that cower when you raise your hand to them, pee themselves or run away if you go to kick them.They know those actions will cause pain YET they will gladly accept a pinch/prong choker chain .. go figure.And still yet to see pictures of dogs necks cut from a pinch collar.

    The hysteria associated with these collars is so immense its laughable and yet many have never used one.I say to each their own.. ive no trouble with that .. it just seems the hysteria also breeds prejudice and falsisms and these people will adamantly continue to say how bad they are.

  10. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by allbreeds View Post
    The hysteria associated with these collars is so immense its laughable and yet many have never used one.I say to each their own.. ive no trouble with that .. it just seems the hysteria also breeds prejudice and falsisms and these people will adamantly continue to say how bad they are.
    Hysteria? No. Just personal experience and my life long experience with dogs. What you achieve with prong collars and check chains is simply learned helplessness. If you're happy with a dog like that, that's fine, as you say, "each to their own". I'm not fine with such dog. I am fine with a dog that trusts me and does things because I've earned its trust, not because I made it do something by force. Same goes for horses. So, just a tool or not - I don't like it, but as I said, unfortunately in some extreme cases where I have no other option left (because dog is so effed up) I would use it.

    You don't have to break dog's neck to pronounce something an injury, you don't have to break horse's ribs to pronounce it a spur injury. Making another creature do whatever you want to do because it's a whim or for your pleasure or whatever it's just not on for me. And now you may argue that dogs MUST do this or that because they need to have manners. Yes, you're right, they must, but it can be done without "tools". I've seen it, I've done it, there are many admirable trainers around the World who do it, so it's really just a choice each person makes when dog enters their lives. I made mine looooong time ago.
    Respect and you shall be respected. Animal is always right.

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