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Thread: Prong Collars, Why?

  1. #281
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    Totally OT SSW, but a horse with calcium deposits anywhere along it's spine certainly should never have a person on it's back.
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  2. #282
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    But isn't that a little different? Kind of like a football player with a knee injury shouldn't be out playing for their team?

  3. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by k9force View Post
    K9: Its funny though, because if one of them wouldnt work with you, they would be the worst in the world...
    I don't understand what was your point here
    Respect and you shall be respected. Animal is always right.

  4. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedra View Post
    I don't understand what was your point here
    K9: Point is, perhaps they would refuse to train you from a professional stand point, rather than a personal one.
    Steve Courtney, K9 Pro - The K9 Professionals

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    Quote Originally Posted by k9force View Post
    K9: I dont pretend to have had, but I am good friends with a number of well known horse trainers and rode horses myself when I was younger, I never caused nor seen an injury from a spur...
    Cool. I used to do showjumping as a kid. And I've seen enough, thanks. Equestrian sport sucks and that's one of the reasons I've left.

    K9: I dont know anyone who uses aversive techniques or tools for their own pleasure. Perhaps anyone who does should be banned from using them or being around animals which they could influence...
    People say horse riding (equestrian sport)is the most pleasurable thing... for whom? For them, people, not for horse. In order to be "safe" they put bits in horses mouths so they can be easily stopped, being forced to collect... If they don't want to go, they use spurs, whips... If horse disobeys, there are many different kinds of bits (I call them torture mechanisms) that could help humans to achieve what they want. If you think that just putting the simplest lightest bit in horses mouth doesn't bother the animal - you're wrong. Where does the bit chewing comes from but from discomfort?
    I won't even mention racing horses or trotters and injuries to their mouths, legs, backs... for what? Our pleasure. Do you think it's normal to have a one year old foal trained for races when it is known that horse's anatomy, bones and joints fully develop at age of five? I could go on and on, but that's waaaay off.

    @silvershadowwolf24
    Where are these studies, Fedra? Do you have the documentation or the links? Im curious, is all, considering Ive never heard of injuries to a horse's back due to a person sitting there.
    SSW, I don't think horse's back can get injured from person "just sitting there". However, horseriding is much much more than "just sitting there".

    Rollkur: researchers explore neck hyperflexion in horses | Horsetalk - International horse news
    Effects of girth, saddle and weight on movements of the horse
    www.animavet.com/BackCare.pdf
    Cambridge Journals Online - Comparative Exercise Physiology
    Barefoot vs. Shod [2008] The Bitless Bridle by Dr. Robert Cook, FRCVS, Ph.D.
    Equine Podiatry | Dr. Stephen O'Grady, veterinarians, farriers, books, articles
    Dr. Robert Bowker - Hoof Care, Laminitis, Navicular, Foot Research and Rehab
    http://www.hauteecole.10gb.ru/NHEEA/...s-ENG-0706.pdf

    And the last I have to say - there is a huge difference in wanting to be animal's master or animal's friend. I am certainly not interested to be a master since I'm not into slavery
    Last edited by Fedra; 06-28-2010 at 07:53 PM.
    Respect and you shall be respected. Animal is always right.

  6. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedra View Post
    Cool. I used to do showjumping as a kid. And I've seen enough, thanks. Equestrian sport sucks and that's one of the reasons I've left.
    K9: The point is, spurs can be used in measure, there isnt a need to injur the animal when using them, abuse is in the user not the tool...

    A spur is a piece of metal, it cannot hurt anything without force behind it. I wonder if the people who fear tools, really fear what they would do with tools left un bridled...

    People say horse riding (equestrian sport)is the most pleasurable thing... for whom? For them, people, not for horse.
    K9: So no horse enjoys it? ever?

    In order to be "safe" they put bits in horses mouths so they can be easily stopped, being forced to collect... If they don't want to go, they use spurs, whips... If horse disobeys, there are many different kinds of bits (I call them torture mechanisms) that could help humans to achieve what they want.
    K9: I think any sport where an animal competes has its risks...

    If you think that just putting the simplest lightest bit in horses mouth doesn't bother the animal - you're wrong.
    K9: I didnt say that nor do I believe it... of course it does, thats why it works... Hedonic behaviour is avoiding discomort and gravitating toward pleasure, but pleasure and discomort are not the same things to every person or every animal.

    Where does the bit chewing comes from but from discomfort?
    K9: Why do they crib fence rails? Actions displayed by mammals, be it dogs, horses or people arent always for the reasons that we think or would like to think.

    I won't even mention racing horses or trotters and injuries to their mouths, legs, backs... for what? Our pleasure.
    K9: Yep, cant disagree, but are you a vegan? Do you eat animals?

    I think there is a huge lack of understanding as to why people use tools in training, it is very easy to sit on a high horse when you have a dog that is easy to train and is behaving desirably, but when this isnt the case, the answer may not be as easy as treat the dog for doing something else.
    Steve Courtney, K9 Pro - The K9 Professionals

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  7. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by silvershadowwolf24 View Post
    But isn't that a little different? Kind of like a football player with a knee injury shouldn't be out playing for their team?
    Correct SSW. It is a different scenario I think than what Fedra was saying.
    But the reason I mentioned it is because many ppl (yes, even horse ppl) don't see it, don't recognise what it is and continue to ride their horses causing so much pain.
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  8. #288
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    I see no point in arguing with you K9 any longer

    Quote Originally Posted by k9force View Post
    I think there is a huge lack of understanding as to why people use tools in training, it is very easy to sit on a high horse when you have a dog that is easy to train and is behaving desirably, but when this isnt the case, the answer may not be as easy as treat the dog for doing something else.
    I'll just laugh this one off as you have no idea what kind of horse and dogs I've worked with without using "tools". I just don't believe that it is possible that each and every one of dogs I've worked with was easily trained and behaved desirably.
    Respect and you shall be respected. Animal is always right.

  9. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate View Post
    Correct SSW. It is a different scenario I think than what Fedra was saying.
    But the reason I mentioned it is because many ppl (yes, even horse ppl) don't see it, don't recognise what it is and continue to ride their horses causing so much pain.
    A football player decides for himself whether he is going to play injured or not. Horse has no voice. People decide for it in order to win, to be seen, to show off, and of course, to enjoy.

    What about horses that are hired to tourists? Hundreds of them humping on their backs pulling on reigns.
    Respect and you shall be respected. Animal is always right.

  10. #290
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    Default Ok some new information (new to this thread)

    A person comes to see me with their dog, they have been to several trainers all who say put the dog down, owner has tried for two years to gain the dogs trust and the dog is extremely fear aggressive towards other dogs.

    They have tried everything they could find and the common answer was euthanise the dog, the lady got the dog as an adult, with possible abusive history and her best advice was that the dog as never socialised and hence is fearful of other dogs and would always be this way.

    This fear developed into moderate dog aggression and finally full blown fear aggression in which the dog would attack.

    They come for a consult, the dog has little to no leash manners, the person is inexperienced but really looking for help but at the same time, have really come to the conclusion the dog cant be rehabilitated and that just one more specialist telling her the same thing would be dutiful enough of the owner to circum to euthanising her large breed dog.

    Assessment tells you that, without any leash control of this dog, it could be quite a danger to the public and other dogs, do you spend 2 months or even 2 weeks focussing on soley trying to train a (near defeated ) owner to train a pulling, lunging, large aggressive dog whilst risking public and dog?

    Not address the aggression at all?

    Do you withold a tool that can make short work of this neccessary ingredient of leash control so more time can be focussed on the main goal, aggression rehab?

    Or do you take the moral high ground and give them a flat collar, convincing them finally (just as others have) that nothing can be done and that their dog really is a un helpable danger and hence the dog will be killed...?

    What would you do?

    My favourite training tool, way above all others, is my mind. With this I develop training programs that achieve results that people use in their working dogs, sport dogs, show dogs, pet dogs and their dogs that need rehabilitation.

    I didnt start this thread to promote prong collars at all, I was asked to make a few comments by a member here as this person thought some education would go a long way here.

    Since then I have been labled someone who advised someone to use a prong collar which ended in an injury to the dog, which I guarantee is UNTRUE.

    My favourite training method is Training in drive (see what it is here) this uses no aversive tools but rather most commonly a harness and a bungee cord to avoid any jarring when the dog is back tied.

    I am able to train most all dogs to do what ever I want through this method, I am.

    I understand that some people lack the instinct, coordination, understanding, agility, skill, knowhow or time required to make success of this method, but rather than berate them, I have ways that still gives them success with the least impact on the animal.

    Someone here said that a good trainer can train a dog without hurting it. Define hurt?

    Dictionary says: -

    1. to feel or suffer bodily or mental pain or distress

    2. to cause bodily or mental pain or distress: The blow to his pride hurt most.

    3. to cause injury, damage, or harm.

    4. to suffer want or need.


    So those that have never had a dog they own suffer want raise your hands, if you have had a dog want something, you have hurt the dog.

    I believe we should help dogs avoid harm, but in doing so, sometimes you have to effect or cause harm.

    A microchip needle is about 4mm thick, stick one in your own arm and see if you like it?

    But people offer up their pups without hesitation because it is for the greater good...

    Prong collars can help people gain control of out of control unruly dogs so that they can modify the behaviour and help the dog avoid harm...
    Steve Courtney, K9 Pro - The K9 Professionals

    www.k9pro.com.au

    Official Forum Trainer and Behaviourist

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